BREXIT - Oh For Crying Out Loud!

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Pross
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Pross » Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:36 pm

Rick Chasey wrote:
Pross wrote:It seems all deal options are off the table because of the Irish border issue but no deal will lead to an automatic hard border in Ireland anyway so if that's the main sticking point it makes no sense not accepting a deal that is better for us in other ways.


Norway model solves the problem


Thought it was said above it didn't (still needs a hard border on goods)?

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Stevo 666
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Stevo 666 » Sun Sep 22, 2019 13:05 pm

Pross wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:
Pross wrote:It seems all deal options are off the table because of the Irish border issue but no deal will lead to an automatic hard border in Ireland anyway so if that's the main sticking point it makes no sense not accepting a deal that is better for us in other ways.


Norway model solves the problem


Thought it was said above it didn't (still needs a hard border on goods)?

Thats right, Norway is outside the customs union and there are checks for goods at the border with Sweden. Not sure how this solves the Irish issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44054594
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Surrey Commuter » Sun Sep 22, 2019 13:16 pm

Pross wrote:It seems all deal options are off the table because of the Irish border issue but no deal will lead to an automatic hard border in Ireland anyway so if that's the main sticking point it makes no sense not accepting a deal that is better for us in other ways.


Very few people care about the Irish border, most are just exploiting it for their own ends.

If you waved a magic wand and disappeared the Irish border problem then the ERG and Corbyn would find another reason to not vote for the WA

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Mr Goo
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Mr Goo » Sun Sep 22, 2019 14:20 pm

Just seen pictures of the march/protests on the front at Brighton where all the socialists (Labour) have gathered. Plenty of banners emblazoned with 'Trust the People - Peoples' vote'.
Wasn't that what happened in June 2016?.... And clearly resulted in the wrong outcome for the government and most on here.

I'm not trying to stir up here but merely want to point out that whatever 'the people' vote for it will be ignored. As clearly a few hundred people in Westminster view the wishes of millions as irrelevant.
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby thecycleclinic » Sun Sep 22, 2019 14:57 pm

Rick Chasey wrote:
Pross wrote:It seems all deal options are off the table because of the Irish border issue but no deal will lead to an automatic hard border in Ireland anyway so if that's the main sticking point it makes no sense not accepting a deal that is better for us in other ways.


Norway model solves the problem


Only if people accept it. The Norway model has generally be used with membership.of the customs union. Farage once like eea did then he changed his mind. we live in the grip or remains and nodealia. Nodealia used to be a reaction to a certain TV food chef.

Of customs union and single market to.some is still in. In fact your jot in the single market fully. A sea member can refuse to accept new regulations on toasters and no longer have a single market for toasters. In practice a member accepts all.new regulations to avoid complexity. Not likely something Britain would do. right now we pick tbe most difficult route just because.
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby PBlakeney » Sun Sep 22, 2019 15:12 pm

Stevo 666 wrote:
PBlakeney wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
PBlakeney wrote:I'm sure BJ would be grateful.

See above, although I ascribe a lower probability to the most likely outcome on that chart.

See above, an election is just another waste of time. Solves nothing.

It depends on the outcome and what you want solving.

As above, most likely result will be a coalition, and even more bickering. Brexit really needs solving.
I see two possible outcomes, endless delays with no solution, or hard Brexit/no deal.
Might as well get it over and done with as my preferred option is unlikely. DC has a lot to answer for.
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TailWindHome
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby TailWindHome » Sun Sep 22, 2019 15:46 pm

With reference to the diagram posted above, if the supreme Court decides that the advice to the Queen was deliberately misleading then I don't see a scenario in which Boris can stay as PM.
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darkhairedlord
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby darkhairedlord » Sun Sep 22, 2019 15:48 pm

TailWindHome wrote:With reference to the diagram posted above, if the supreme Court decides that the advice to the Queen was deliberately misleading then I don't see a scenario in which Boris can stay as PM.

Who will get rid?

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TailWindHome
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby TailWindHome » Sun Sep 22, 2019 18:55 pm

Amidst everything else this gem of an interview with the Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition may have been overlooked

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49757000

Jeremy Corbyn has said that he got his words wrong when he initially appeared to reject the Brexit backstop.
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verylonglegs
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby verylonglegs » Sun Sep 22, 2019 19:21 pm

TailWindHome wrote:With reference to the diagram posted above, if the supreme Court decides that the advice to the Queen was deliberately misleading then I don't see a scenario in which Boris can stay as PM.


Are you assuming we are still in a rational logical situation?

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Jez mon
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Jez mon » Sun Sep 22, 2019 19:31 pm

PBlakeney wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
PBlakeney wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
PBlakeney wrote:I'm sure BJ would be grateful.

See above, although I ascribe a lower probability to the most likely outcome on that chart.

See above, an election is just another waste of time. Solves nothing.

It depends on the outcome and what you want solving.

As above, most likely result will be a coalition, and even more bickering. Brexit really needs solving.
I see two possible outcomes, endless delays with no solution, or hard Brexit/no deal.
Might as well get it over and done with as my preferred option is unlikely. DC has a lot to answer for.


It's worth pointing out that no deal really doesn't give you an over and done with solution here.
You live and learn. At any rate, you live

PBlakeney
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby PBlakeney » Sun Sep 22, 2019 21:35 pm

Jez mon wrote:
PBlakeney wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
PBlakeney wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
PBlakeney wrote:I'm sure BJ would be grateful.

See above, although I ascribe a lower probability to the most likely outcome on that chart.

See above, an election is just another waste of time. Solves nothing.

It depends on the outcome and what you want solving.

As above, most likely result will be a coalition, and even more bickering. Brexit really needs solving.
I see two possible outcomes, endless delays with no solution, or hard Brexit/no deal.
Might as well get it over and done with as my preferred option is unlikely. DC has a lot to answer for.


It's worth pointing out that no deal really doesn't give you an over and done with solution here.

No, but it eliminates a few other alternatives.
Not what I want under any circumstance but we are in purgatory just now.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.

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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby briantrumpet » Sun Sep 22, 2019 21:39 pm

TailWindHome wrote:Amidst everything else this gem of an interview with the Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition may have been overlooked

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49757000

Jeremy Corbyn has said that he got his words wrong when he initially appeared to reject the Brexit backstop.

I thought it would have been impossible for Corbyn to confuse himself (and us) even more than he already is. He's surpassing himself now. It reminds of the time a government minister admitted that one of its educational schemes had failed... so they were going to pursue it even harder. At a time when they've fallen behind the Lib Dems in opinion polls, you'd think that he might... oh no, hang on, it's Corbyn.

antonyfromoz
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby antonyfromoz » Sun Sep 22, 2019 23:23 pm

Mr Goo wrote:Just seen pictures of the march/protests on the front at Brighton where all the socialists (Labour) have gathered. Plenty of banners emblazoned with 'Trust the People - Peoples' vote'.
Wasn't that what happened in June 2016?.... And clearly resulted in the wrong outcome for the government and most on here.

I'm not trying to stir up here but merely want to point out that whatever 'the people' vote for it will be ignored. As clearly a few hundred people in Westminster view the wishes of millions as irrelevant.

But what did "the people" vote for? The guarantees given by the pollies and lobbyists pushing for leave are a far cry from the reality we are now facing - and many leading leave promoters were saying before the referendum that they would not support a no deal brexit and several publically supported a second referendum after a deal had been negotiated - including Farage and Rees Moggs. Before the referendum Vote Leave stated that Britain would exit the EU with “a new UK-EU Treaty based on free trade and friendly cooperation. If there is a belief that the majority voted to get out of the EU with no deal then what is the problem with a second vote, just to confirm that they still feel this way before it's too late? The expense will be minimal compared to the money already spent on trying to retain a tory majority government and the pre-election cash that the government has been promising to throw around recently.

antonyfromoz
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby antonyfromoz » Sun Sep 22, 2019 23:25 pm

Jez mon wrote:
PBlakeney wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
PBlakeney wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
PBlakeney wrote:I'm sure BJ would be grateful.

See above, although I ascribe a lower probability to the most likely outcome on that chart.

See above, an election is just another waste of time. Solves nothing.

It depends on the outcome and what you want solving.

As above, most likely result will be a coalition, and even more bickering. Brexit really needs solving.
I see two possible outcomes, endless delays with no solution, or hard Brexit/no deal.
Might as well get it over and done with as my preferred option is unlikely. DC has a lot to answer for.


It's worth pointing out that no deal really doesn't give you an over and done with solution here.

No deal gives us the same problems with the added difficulty of an Irish hard border.

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Robert88
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Robert88 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 06:08 am

antonyfromoz wrote:
Mr Goo wrote:Just seen pictures of the march/protests on the front at Brighton where all the socialists (Labour) have gathered. Plenty of banners emblazoned with 'Trust the People - Peoples' vote'.
Wasn't that what happened in June 2016?.... And clearly resulted in the wrong outcome for the government and most on here.

I'm not trying to stir up here but merely want to point out that whatever 'the people' vote for it will be ignored. As clearly a few hundred people in Westminster view the wishes of millions as irrelevant.

But what did "the people" vote for? The guarantees given by the pollies and lobbyists pushing for leave are a far cry from the reality we are now facing - and many leading leave promoters were saying before the referendum that they would not support a no deal brexit and several publically supported a second referendum after a deal had been negotiated - including Farage and Rees Moggs. Before the referendum Vote Leave stated that Britain would exit the EU with “a new UK-EU Treaty based on free trade and friendly cooperation. If there is a belief that the majority voted to get out of the EU with no deal then what is the problem with a second vote, just to confirm that they still feel this way before it's too late? The expense will be minimal compared to the money already spent on trying to retain a tory majority government and the pre-election cash that the government has been promising to throw around recently.


The 'people' voted with their emotions.

Those seeking the Leave vote campaigned accordingly. Unfortunately they can only retain their leadership by continuing along that path because they had no idea how to actually fix things. They can only look for scapegoats to blame for the ongoing failure. Remain supporters included.

Logic and reason go by the board once emotions are stirred up sufficiently.

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Mr Goo
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Mr Goo » Mon Sep 23, 2019 06:52 am

Robert88 wrote:
antonyfromoz wrote:
Mr Goo wrote:Just seen pictures of the march/protests on the front at Brighton where all the socialists (Labour) have gathered. Plenty of banners emblazoned with 'Trust the People - Peoples' vote'.
Wasn't that what happened in June 2016?.... And clearly resulted in the wrong outcome for the government and most on here.

I'm not trying to stir up here but merely want to point out that whatever 'the people' vote for it will be ignored. As clearly a few hundred people in Westminster view the wishes of millions as irrelevant.

But what did "the people" vote for? The guarantees given by the pollies and lobbyists pushing for leave are a far cry from the reality we are now facing - and many leading leave promoters were saying before the referendum that they would not support a no deal brexit and several publically supported a second referendum after a deal had been negotiated - including Farage and Rees Moggs. Before the referendum Vote Leave stated that Britain would exit the EU with “a new UK-EU Treaty based on free trade and friendly cooperation. If there is a belief that the majority voted to get out of the EU with no deal then what is the problem with a second vote, just to confirm that they still feel this way before it's too late? The expense will be minimal compared to the money already spent on trying to retain a tory majority government and the pre-election cash that the government has been promising to throw around recently.


The 'people' voted with their emotions.

Those seeking the Leave vote campaigned accordingly. Unfortunately they can only retain their leadership by continuing along that path because they had no idea how to actually fix things. They can only look for scapegoats to blame for the ongoing failure. Remain supporters included.

Logic and reason go by the board once emotions are stirred up sufficiently.


I didn't vote Brexit based on some whipped up emotional clap trap. Nor did any of the many people I have met. Not gonna keep taking over this.
What I trying to point out is that MPs genuinely believe they know better than the rest of the population, whatever the subject.
Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.

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Rick Chasey
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Rick Chasey » Mon Sep 23, 2019 07:10 am

Stevo 666 wrote:
Pross wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:
Pross wrote:It seems all deal options are off the table because of the Irish border issue but no deal will lead to an automatic hard border in Ireland anyway so if that's the main sticking point it makes no sense not accepting a deal that is better for us in other ways.


Norway model solves the problem


Thought it was said above it didn't (still needs a hard border on goods)?

Thats right, Norway is outside the customs union and there are checks for goods at the border with Sweden. Not sure how this solves the Irish issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44054594


Add in the customs union and you’re golden.

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rjsterry
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby rjsterry » Mon Sep 23, 2019 07:14 am

Mr Goo wrote:
Robert88 wrote:
antonyfromoz wrote:
Mr Goo wrote:Just seen pictures of the march/protests on the front at Brighton where all the socialists (Labour) have gathered. Plenty of banners emblazoned with 'Trust the People - Peoples' vote'.
Wasn't that what happened in June 2016?.... And clearly resulted in the wrong outcome for the government and most on here.

I'm not trying to stir up here but merely want to point out that whatever 'the people' vote for it will be ignored. As clearly a few hundred people in Westminster view the wishes of millions as irrelevant.

But what did "the people" vote for? The guarantees given by the pollies and lobbyists pushing for leave are a far cry from the reality we are now facing - and many leading leave promoters were saying before the referendum that they would not support a no deal brexit and several publically supported a second referendum after a deal had been negotiated - including Farage and Rees Moggs. Before the referendum Vote Leave stated that Britain would exit the EU with “a new UK-EU Treaty based on free trade and friendly cooperation. If there is a belief that the majority voted to get out of the EU with no deal then what is the problem with a second vote, just to confirm that they still feel this way before it's too late? The expense will be minimal compared to the money already spent on trying to retain a tory majority government and the pre-election cash that the government has been promising to throw around recently.


The 'people' voted with their emotions.

Those seeking the Leave vote campaigned accordingly. Unfortunately they can only retain their leadership by continuing along that path because they had no idea how to actually fix things. They can only look for scapegoats to blame for the ongoing failure. Remain supporters included.

Logic and reason go by the board once emotions are stirred up sufficiently.


I didn't vote Brexit based on some whipped up emotional clap trap. Nor did any of the many people I have met. Not gonna keep taking over this.
What I trying to point out is that MPs genuinely believe they know better than the rest of the population, whatever the subject.


Yes, that's how a representative democracy works. We elect them: they make decisions. If we don't like those decisions we have the opportunity to elect someone else in 5 years time.
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Rick Chasey
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Re: BREXIT - Complete Meltdown

Postby Rick Chasey » Mon Sep 23, 2019 07:17 am

Mr Goo wrote:I didn't vote Brexit based on some whipped up emotional clap trap. Nor did any of the many people I have met. Not gonna keep taking over this.
What I trying to point out is that MPs genuinely believe they know better than the rest of the population, whatever the subject.


remind me how representative democracy works.


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