the nhs

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the playing mantis
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Re: the nhs

Postby the playing mantis » Thu May 09, 2013 13:13 pm

i would happily pay more tax. once the welfare system has been improved and our borders tightened.

AchillesLeftKnee
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Re: the nhs

Postby AchillesLeftKnee » Thu May 09, 2013 13:16 pm

VTech wrote:I've heard in arguments on question time that if people were charged for alcohol related injustices and time at A&E it would be a 30% saving to the NHS.
I've. I idea if this is true but I have no problem with charging people for self inflicted injuries.

For a Fun Thursday Challenge, have a pop at defining "self inflicted injury".
Mangeur

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the playing mantis
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Re: the nhs

Postby the playing mantis » Thu May 09, 2013 13:20 pm

falling off a bike is self inflicted, i would happily pay if it meant quicker A&E. i would support a private sector version of A&E too.

ooermissus
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Re: the nhs

Postby ooermissus » Thu May 09, 2013 13:27 pm

the playing mantis wrote:i would happily pay if it meant quicker A&E. i would support a private sector version of A&E too.


Even at £1200 for a consultation, course of antibiotics, and a check up? (The amount I paid in the US.)

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the playing mantis
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Re: the nhs

Postby the playing mantis » Thu May 09, 2013 13:30 pm

i only go to A&E for trauma. i would pay that for fixing trauma related injury, not something that required a course of antibiotics, as thats something a GP could/should be dealing with.

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disgruntledgoat
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Re: the nhs

Postby disgruntledgoat » Thu May 09, 2013 13:32 pm

the playing mantis wrote:i only go to A&E for trauma. i would pay that for fixing trauma related injury, not something that required a course of antibiotics, as thats something a GP could/should be dealing with.



SO you're sayinga wound gone septic isn't deserving of emergency treatment?

Likewise, if I get knocked off my bike by a car, that's self inflicted? Somebody whacks a cricket ball into my face? I'm involved, as a passenger, in a car accident?
"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

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ooermissus
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Re: the nhs

Postby ooermissus » Thu May 09, 2013 13:35 pm

the playing mantis wrote:i only go to A&E for trauma. i would pay that for fixing trauma related injury, not something that required a course of antibiotics, as thats something a GP could/should be dealing with.


You obviously have no idea how serious, or fast-moving, infections can be. But thanks for the medical advice.

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VTech
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Re: the nhs

Postby VTech » Thu May 09, 2013 13:54 pm

Ooeer, stop being angry in your replies.

Back on subject. I am happy to pay for self inflicted and I'm sure most decent honourable people "who can afford too" would also be happy to pay.
There are those that can't afford and those that think they shouldnt need to but we can't do anything about those.

If your drink and fall you should pay, maybe not all but at least towards the overall cost, maybe a set fee of £250 ?
If you fall of your bike then maybe a £125 fee ?

Decent people will pay if they can.
Living MY dream.

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the playing mantis
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Re: the nhs

Postby the playing mantis » Thu May 09, 2013 13:56 pm

no i dont, as i have no wish to be in medicine. thanks for the lesson, if things like that can be that serious then yes i would pay.

disgruntled goat not sure what your point is, my comment was about myself falling off a bike, i should have made it clearer. however re self inflicted injuries, others have made that rod. playing cricket riding a bike are all choices, if you get hurt doing them whoevers fault it is it could be argued they are self inflicted as you chose to do the activity that created the risk. car accidents are slightly different i would suggest.

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the playing mantis
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Re: the nhs

Postby the playing mantis » Thu May 09, 2013 14:05 pm

VTech wrote:Ooeer, stop being angry in your replies.

Back on subject. I am happy to pay for self inflicted and I'm sure most decent honourable people "who can afford too" would also be happy to pay.
There are those that can't afford and those that think they shouldnt need to but we can't do anything about those.

If your drink and fall you should pay, maybe not all but at least towards the overall cost, maybe a set fee of £250 ?
If you fall of your bike then maybe a £125 fee ?

Decent people will pay if they can.


thats a good idea

ooermissus
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Re: the nhs

Postby ooermissus » Thu May 09, 2013 14:34 pm

the playing mantis wrote:no i dont, as i have no wish to be in medicine. thanks for the lesson, if things like that can be that serious then yes i would pay.


Yeah sorry - it was just the implication that going into a&e with an infected joint was an over-reaction.

The wider point is that I think many of us don't really appreciate how much private medicine can end up costing, how much the costs can vary, and how little power a patient has to get a good deal.

In the US yesterday, they released a shed of data showing that the average cost for a patient with heart failure varied from as little as $7k in one hospital to as much as $50k in another. Pricing is not transparent. The 'customer' is often in no fit state to go somewhere else. The result is a pretty crappy market.

AchillesLeftKnee
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Re: the nhs

Postby AchillesLeftKnee » Thu May 09, 2013 14:40 pm

the playing mantis wrote:thats a good idea

Or a luck-based stealth tax that involves paying for the same service twice, depending on how you look at it.
Mangeur

laurentian
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Re: the nhs

Postby laurentian » Thu May 09, 2013 14:56 pm

VTech wrote:Ooeer, stop being angry in your replies.

Back on subject. I am happy to pay for self inflicted and I'm sure most decent honourable people "who can afford too" would also be happy to pay.
There are those that can't afford and those that think they shouldnt need to but we can't do anything about those.

If your drink and fall you should pay, maybe not all but at least towards the overall cost, maybe a set fee of £250 ?
If you fall of your bike then maybe a £125 fee ?

Decent people will pay if they can.


Have a think about the can of worms you're opening here!

Drink and fall over = £250 charge. Do you not think there is just the slightest of chances that the drinker will pursue the bar or barman that "allowed" him to get in that state for compensation? The bike manufacturer sued for a product not fit for purpose? Whether your injury is "self inflicted" or not, all tax/NI payers have already made a contribution to the NHS in the hope that it will look after them when they need it for whatever reason. Pregnancy is self inflicted, should people be charged for obstetric services? work injuries are self inflicted as many people choose the job they do and could have avoided the injury.

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ooermissus
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Re: the nhs

Postby ooermissus » Thu May 09, 2013 14:59 pm

The government-run panel that decides who deserves free care and who needs to be pay - it's going to be very popular.

Frank the tank
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Re: the nhs

Postby Frank the tank » Thu May 09, 2013 16:00 pm

There's some rubbish being spouted.

So you go into A&E and rather than triage your first encounter is with someone who has to interview you to decide if your injury is "self inflicted" or not.How long would that process take and define "self inflicted"?

If you're commuting to/from work and have an accident that's free treatment, if you're going on holiday though? shopping? Visiting someone in hospital?

Is there a right to appeal, some people are really not thinking are they. :roll:
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The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.

tiredofwhiners
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Re: the nhs

Postby tiredofwhiners » Thu May 09, 2013 16:44 pm

pliptrot wrote:The USA is a perfact example of just how f^&ked-up, not fit for purpose and incredibly expensive a health care system can be once you let the private sector in.


Apart from all the highly efficient privately provided, public sector health services in Europe that is.

You're right that the USA is rubbish as its 100% private, but one could point out pretty much how the UK 100% publicly provided service is just as sh*te.

Somewhere in the middle ground is where we want to be - free at the point of use as originally intended and the method of delivery should be irrelevant. If the public body can provide the most efficient service then thats who should provide it and if it isn't then they shouldn't.

ooermissus
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Re: the nhs

Postby ooermissus » Thu May 09, 2013 16:55 pm

Most of the European systems are not free at the point of use. And doesn't the NHS already spend a lot of its cash through the private sector?

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MountainMonster
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Re: the nhs

Postby MountainMonster » Thu May 09, 2013 17:36 pm

I genuinely find this thread has dropped in quality. Charging someone for falling off a bike? Are you serious? What if this person chose to commute by bike and fell off, is that still self inflicted. What if they get hit while on their bike, is that automatically self-inflicted since they were on a bike. Does walking down the street and missing a small hole with sends them into the gutter count as self-inflicted?

You guys can not actually be serious.

If anything, cycling lowers the burden on the NHS as the people are fitter. I highly doubt the small percentage of people falling off and ending up in hospital is even 1% of the money saved by having a healthier population.

Some people these days.....

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Rigged
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Re: the nhs

Postby Rigged » Thu May 09, 2013 20:56 pm

MountainMonster wrote:I genuinely find this thread has dropped in quality. Charging someone for falling off a bike? Are you serious? What if this person chose to commute by bike and fell off, is that still self inflicted. What if they get hit while on their bike, is that automatically self-inflicted since they were on a bike. Does walking down the street and missing a small hole with sends them into the gutter count as self-inflicted?

You guys can not actually be serious.

If anything, cycling lowers the burden on the NHS as the people are fitter. I highly doubt the small percentage of people falling off and ending up in hospital is even 1% of the money saved by having a healthier population.

Some people these days.....


I have to agree with this.

Where do we stop with 'self-inflicted'?

How do you decide how much extra bodyweight is the cause of a joint problem requiring an operation such as a knee or hip replacement?

Would smokers get refused lung cancer/heart disease treatment etc.?

What about those who have smoked but have since given up?

How about those in need of emergency care; do we allow them to continue bleeding out whilst their pockets are searched for a credit card to swipe because they chose to step into the road at the wrong moment?

Further, who makes these spur-of-the-moment decisions, and what checks exist to ensure that people deserving of free care aren't charged or that those who should pay don't get their care for free?

How much would that cost to administrate?

What form of repercussions would exist when mistakes were made?

How would you compensate those who suffer at the hands of incorrect decisions?

I bet the same people calling for such a system would be the first to be up in arms when the papers uncover the scandal of a little old lady refused free treatment for something. Such a circumstance becomes inevitable when you make the system intentionally discriminatory and add so much complication to the system.

I understand the thought process behind the suggestion, but making individuals carry the burden of mistakes that could befall anyone is completely counter to what I believe is great about the NHS, and by extension what is great about this country. People are so keen to knock this country for the disappearing sense of 'society', whilst simultaneously looking to dismantle many of the community-spirited institutions that we should be proud of. The NHS and the welfare state are just two examples of the types of thing this country should be immensely proud of having rather than looking to dismantle them entirely so that they can pay a little less tax and have a little more money for themselves.

I suppose now I'm a commie, by some people's standards at least :lol:

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MountainMonster
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Re: the nhs

Postby MountainMonster » Thu May 09, 2013 21:08 pm

Where's the like button for the post above?


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