the nhs

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seanoconn
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Re: the nhs

Postby seanoconn » Wed May 08, 2013 12:11 pm

Cheers. I would advise anyone being treated by the NHS, not to put blind faith in doctors though. They're human and make mistakes. Do your own research, pay attention to what the doctor is saying. Ask lots and lots of questions and ask for the best of everything. Sometimes if you don't ask you don't get.
Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי

AchillesLeftKnee
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Re: the nhs

Postby AchillesLeftKnee » Wed May 08, 2013 12:30 pm

Touch wood, have had no personal experience of the NHS for years. Based on those of friends n' family, it looks to me like they do superb job of stuff that's very much a known quantity (including genuinely serious and nasty stuff), but it all goes really badly to pot when things get a bit complex and start to fall outside the normal processes. In the case of the latter scenario, I've got two friends with incurable (but manageable) obscure long term chronic conditions, and the care they receive is more or less a matter of medical roulette - sometimes exceptional, other times non-existent*.

That said, as pointed out earlier, the NHS is remarkably cost effective, and whilst I'm sure there are a lot of improvements that could be made, it seems to me that system is pretty sound and is therefore a Good Thing and worth the money.

* To the point of one of them recently being effectively told she wasn't ill. Well, if semi-regular brushes with death's door and their accompanying stays in intensive care are a hobby, it's a new one on me!
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Capt Slog
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Re: the nhs

Postby Capt Slog » Wed May 08, 2013 13:01 pm

Frank the tank wrote:
the playing mantis wrote:i have no expereince of us healthcare.

as for a private A&E, i would use it. of course i would be charging huge amounts of money. hence it being private. health insurance isnt a bad idea.

'Til you can't afford the premiums and you have a smash on your bike.


I say to these people, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Sometimes you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone.


After living under the umbrella of the NHS for all my life it seems impossible now that there was another way of health care but I recall bits of what my late father told me.

When he was in his late teen/early twenties he was kicked in the side of his thigh whilst playing football, this caused an abscess which he had to go to hospital to have treated. I remember the huge scar on the inside of his leg.

Before he went to hospital he had to go and see the vicar. As a regular church goer (+choir member and bell ringer) he had some standing in his local church, and it was from the church that he got the money for his treatment or they agreed to pay the bills.

I might be hazy on the details, but I'm sure that's how it went, and I hope it never goes back to that.
The older I get, the better I was.

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the playing mantis
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Re: the nhs

Postby the playing mantis » Wed May 08, 2013 13:08 pm

Frank the tank wrote:
the playing mantis wrote:i have no expereince of us healthcare.

as for a private A&E, i would use it. of course i would be charging huge amounts of money. hence it being private. health insurance isnt a bad idea.

'Til you can't afford the premiums and you have a smash on your bike.

Remember we pay NI and when you're no longer earning you still continue to be covered and cared for by the NHS. Soon as your premiums cease to be paid, "go whistle" for your health care.

In the last 12months I've had both my hips resurfaced via the NHS and both the operation itself and the aftercare in/out of hospital has been excellent.

As I said the NHS isn't perfect (what is) however in some sections of the media and society it's become very fashionable to attack the NHS and what it does/doesn't do.

I say to these people, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. Sometimes you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone.


i had acrah on saturday, and experienced the delights of A&E. that triggered my post. i have health ins x2.

dynamicbrick
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Re: the nhs

Postby dynamicbrick » Wed May 08, 2013 13:13 pm

I'm very much in two minds about the NHS.

Yes, they put me back together again after I'd speared myself into the scenery at 100mph whilst parting company with my motorbike. However, that was nearly twenty years ago. Since then, I've had mostly awful experiences through relatives - the treatment and ultimate expiration of my father from leukemia was pretty shocking by any standards. My brother was left in A&E for nearly 14 hours without any attention whatsoever after an industrial accident where he'd lost two pints of blood. The birth of my second child was far more bloody fraught than it should have been, only being resolved when the midwives eventually acquiesced to my demands to get the consultant in to see the missus.

My GP is probably the worst of the bunch... I could go on for hours about him, but suffice to say it's taken me six years of complaining of right ear and balance problems to be diagnosed (privately) with an unusual but not uncommon vestibular disorder. Then there was the various mis-diagnosis he's given my kids for various things... or the time he prescribed my then 8yr old some drugs which would have killed an adult - only the pharmacist noticing it was wrong saved us from that one.

My mother worked administratively in the NHS until retirement, and she maintained the problem is not one of money, or the layers of management, but that like all large public bodies it suffers from both silo mentality and collective paranoia. The little empires all over the organisation hamper effectively collaboration of resources and knowledge, whilst the paranoia about anyone not NHS severely restricts the organisation's ability to view itself critically and make changes - as Mid-Staffs showed.

The bad people don't get sacked, rather shuffled about, eventually collecting in dumping grounds like East Surrey or Mid Staffs, whereas the good people gravitate towards the centres of excellence like Kings or GOSH. Hence the roulette - if Kings if your local, you're pretty much in good hands with lots of excellent people in-situ. Live 10 miles South, however, and you're taking your life in your hands at Redhill. My Father's leukemia treatment begun at Kings, and it was brilliant. Then he transferred to Redhill and it was borderline 3rd world; illiterate temp nurses running the dispensing trolley (!), sporadic food, cancer wards without staff for hours at a time, sheets unwashed for weeks, the recently deceased left in the ward for four or five hours... it was a hellish last few months for him.

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the playing mantis
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Re: the nhs

Postby the playing mantis » Wed May 08, 2013 13:20 pm

your experinces sound awful, this point struck me:

"or the time he prescribed my then 8yr old some drugs which would have killed an adult - only the pharmacist noticing it was wrong saved us from that one".

surely the gp could be struck off for that, or am i being naive

mamba80
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Re: the nhs

Postby mamba80 » Wed May 08, 2013 13:50 pm

the playing mantis wrote:i disagree. A&E for example is a joke, badly run, disorgainsed the left hand doesnt know what the right is doing. full of attention seekers and hypochondriacs wasting time. i dont understand why there isnt a private version of A&E.


Yes AE is not good at all BUT whose fault is that??? ours! we go there with the slightest ache or pain, minor injuries - cuts and bruises, and then demand to be seen asap.
My last visit there was for my bro who had concusion, b/collar bone and several missing teeth (mtb accident) we had a 3hr wait (after triage) we were surrounded with screaming kids whose worried mums said little jonny/jenny banged their head but is alright now but needs to been seen "just in case" a few sprained ankles, ffs they could walk! what do the think a nurse is going to do for them? (oh and demanding an x-ray) and one guy who had been hit on the nose playing squash...i had to look v. hard to see the tiny cut.
We are a nation of softies, bring in a minimum charge for AE, say £20 and see the place empty, im sure some people go there for the social scene - oh and a £100 charge if you turn up there pxssed.

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the playing mantis
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Re: the nhs

Postby the playing mantis » Wed May 08, 2013 14:39 pm

to a point yes, kids get prority over adults i belive, but there is no excuse for the same patient getting called by 2 seperate people (whilst they were already being seen) this happened on a number of occasions, likewise when patients had left, they were still being called. when i eventually saw the doc, he and the nurse were commenting about another patient, and one of them made the remark, oh he left or something, and the doc said oh yes i forgot to flag it (or something similar) so some of the staff still thought this person was waitng to be seen.

its a shambles.

dynamicbrick
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Re: the nhs

Postby dynamicbrick » Wed May 08, 2013 15:06 pm

The charging you if you rock up due to alcohol related incidents might be an idea - certainly don't think it would meet any resistance from the militant nurses union. Don't think it would meet with any dissent from the vast majority of the public either. There is/was some statistic to say that something like 80% of A&E admissions between Friday and Monday are down to alcohol... something like 60% overall, if I recall correctly.

And to be fair, the culture has changed in recent years to A&E being the default primary care/diagnosis place of choice - if you ring 111 they'll default to telling you to go to A&E long before they'll send the out of hours GP round.

Frank the tank
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Re: the nhs

Postby Frank the tank » Wed May 08, 2013 15:32 pm

dynamicbrick wrote:The charging you if you rock up due to alcohol related incidents might be an idea - certainly don't think it would meet any resistance from the militant nurses union. Don't think it would meet with any dissent from the vast majority of the public either. There is/was some statistic to say that something like 80% of A&E admissions between Friday and Monday are down to alcohol... something like 60% overall, if I recall correctly.

And to be fair, the culture has changed in recent years to A&E being the default primary care/diagnosis place of choice - if you ring 111 they'll default to telling you to go to A&E long before they'll send the out of hours GP round.

So I go out with some pals have a few bevvies and the des driver has a smash and I end up in A&E. Why should I be charged a £100?

I've had loads of visits to A&E usually through sporting incidents or very occasionally work related. I had to wait my turn but so what I got mended on that day.
Tail end Charlie

The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.

dynamicbrick
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Re: the nhs

Postby dynamicbrick » Wed May 08, 2013 15:50 pm

Frank the tank wrote:
dynamicbrick wrote:The charging you if you rock up due to alcohol related incidents might be an idea - certainly don't think it would meet any resistance from the militant nurses union. Don't think it would meet with any dissent from the vast majority of the public either. There is/was some statistic to say that something like 80% of A&E admissions between Friday and Monday are down to alcohol... something like 60% overall, if I recall correctly.

And to be fair, the culture has changed in recent years to A&E being the default primary care/diagnosis place of choice - if you ring 111 they'll default to telling you to go to A&E long before they'll send the out of hours GP round.

So I go out with some pals have a few bevvies and the des driver has a smash and I end up in A&E. Why should I be charged a £100?

I've had loads of visits to A&E usually through sporting incidents or very occasionally work related. I had to wait my turn but so what I got mended on that day.


Yes, it would be a bloody nightmare to administrate, but if you want an example of unnecessary drag on the system, pop into Brighton A&E on a late Saturday afternoon during the summer - it's like a bloody zoo; heatstroke, sunburn, alcohol, and injuries from fighting or falling off things whilst suffering from the above.

Frank the tank
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Re: the nhs

Postby Frank the tank » Wed May 08, 2013 16:02 pm

dynamicbrick wrote:
Frank the tank wrote:
dynamicbrick wrote:The charging you if you rock up due to alcohol related incidents might be an idea - certainly don't think it would meet any resistance from the militant nurses union. Don't think it would meet with any dissent from the vast majority of the public either. There is/was some statistic to say that something like 80% of A&E admissions between Friday and Monday are down to alcohol... something like 60% overall, if I recall correctly.

And to be fair, the culture has changed in recent years to A&E being the default primary care/diagnosis place of choice - if you ring 111 they'll default to telling you to go to A&E long before they'll send the out of hours GP round.

So I go out with some pals have a few bevvies and the des driver has a smash and I end up in A&E. Why should I be charged a £100?

I've had loads of visits to A&E usually through sporting incidents or very occasionally work related. I had to wait my turn but so what I got mended on that day.


Yes, it would be a bloody nightmare to administrate, but if you want an example of unnecessary drag on the system, pop into Brighton A&E on a late Saturday afternoon during the summer - it's like a bloody zoo; heatstroke, sunburn, alcohol, and injuries from fighting or falling off things whilst suffering from the above.

Therefore more admin, which is one of the things folk moan about the NHS.

Yes there are idiots in A&E and time wasters but that's the nature of the department and th public I'm affraid. Hand on heart I can say neither I nor anyone of my family have made a needless visit to A&E.

I suppose it's about opinions, I know my gaffer was not very chuffed when I lost time at work due to sporting injuries but A&E didn't consider me a problem.
Tail end Charlie

The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.

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Rigged
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Re: the nhs

Postby Rigged » Wed May 08, 2013 17:11 pm

Words can't express how much I appreciate our NHS. Sure, it's not the perfect model for the system, but it's a damn site better than a lot of the alternatives. I can't say too much more without going into my medical history on a public forum but suffice to say it's done a hell of a lot for me and any criticism is far outweighed by the good it does. That's not to say we shouldn't strive to improve it further, of course we should, but it does make my blood boil when I see people paint a picture of it as though it were a completely failed institution.

I'm truly grateful for everything the staff and system has given for me.

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Ballysmate
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Re: the nhs

Postby Ballysmate » Wed May 08, 2013 18:06 pm

We can all recount stories, good and bad about the NHS. It is by no means perfect, but I don't know the answer to its ills.
People cite the US model as being better, but good treatment is not universal there either.
My sis in law and her husband reside there and get medical insurance through work. A visit to the doc results in a charge of $30, as their contribution to the cost. The insurance picks up the other $270.
A trip to the hospital means a bill for $600.
There is however a ceiling of $6000 per year for patient contributions. Any subsequent visits to the doc/hospital are free, once this threshold is reached. That is, until the start of the next year.

Frank the tank
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Re: the nhs

Postby Frank the tank » Wed May 08, 2013 18:15 pm

Rigged wrote:Words can't express how much I appreciate our NHS. Sure, it's not the perfect model for the system, but it's a damn site better than a lot of the alternatives. I can't say too much more without going into my medical history on a public forum but suffice to say it's done a hell of a lot for me and any criticism is far outweighed by the good it does. That's not to say we shouldn't strive to improve it further, of course we should, but it does make my blood boil when I see people paint a picture of it as though it were a completely failed institution.

I'm truly grateful for everything the staff and system has given for me.

Here here.

The NHS is I believe the fourth largest employer in the world (massive to say the least) there are bound to be inefficiencies and issues. Indeed I have a mate who is, reluctantly sueing them at the moment but he still believes it's a great institution. Ironically his wife is an NHS employee.
Tail end Charlie

The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.

Clickrumble
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Re: the nhs

Postby Clickrumble » Wed May 08, 2013 19:29 pm

I've lived for a while in the US. I echo most of the comments above about the treatment in the equivalent of A&E there, it's good, but you must be prepared to pay a large bill, and don't get get seriously ill, you'll have to sell your house to pay for the treatment. My concern about the NHS is that it's rapidly being privatised and there are plenty of unscrupulous people out there wanting to pick up a part of it and make money.

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finchy
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Re: the nhs

Postby finchy » Wed May 08, 2013 19:31 pm

From my recent experiences, I'd say that the treatment has been great, the admin truly terrible. A letter accidentally sent to my Nan informed her that her illness was terminal (it wasn't) and she never even got an apology for such a distressing experience. OTOH, the NHS did save her life.

Compared to other countries I know of, I'd say that the NHS is by far the best system in terms of preventative disease - the French will just give you medicine for anything, even if you'd be better off without. The USA is ridiculous for doling out the medicine. I'd much sooner have a doctor telling me to change my diet.

dynamicbrick
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Re: the nhs

Postby dynamicbrick » Wed May 08, 2013 20:42 pm

Well, despite my experiences, I'd still rather have the NHS than not.

The basic premise remains the same, a premise which is something worth holding onto; that no matter who you are, where you are, and what's wrong with you, some nice men and women will endeavour to put you back together again, without charging you a penny.

As I said earlier though - the NHS will never really look at itself critically, and no politician dare touch it other than to just tinker around the edges. It runs the very real risk of never being efficient, or value for the vast sums of money it consumes, and things like MRSA, Mid-Staffs, etc etc, will continue to haunt it.

Drfabulous0
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Re: the nhs

Postby Drfabulous0 » Wed May 08, 2013 21:32 pm

I've never had much issue personally with the NHS despite many many hospital visits. Only the waiting bothers me, 12 hours once in A&E, but I have learned that if you just call 999 you will get a lift and be seen straight away. If you don't need to call 999 then you don't need to go to A&E, just go home, sober up and meditate on rule 5.

However my wife's friend was recently told by a midwife when she was 16 weeks pregnant that her baby was dead, when in fact there was nothing wrong with it and a colleague of mine was told he had terminal cancer and weeks to live when in fact he also had nothing wrong with him. So I guess it's hit or miss.

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MountainMonster
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Re: the nhs

Postby MountainMonster » Wed May 08, 2013 21:41 pm

All these reasons are why I am thankful I am healthy and, knock on wood, never end up in A&E. I hardly even go to get medicine or visit the doctor unless I am half dead.


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