Does stack and reach work?

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Singleton
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Does stack and reach work?

Postby Singleton » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:40 am

Or more specifically, does stack and reach provide a meaningful comparison between frame sizes?

I'm aware that the best way to buy a bike is to test ride it .

For example, take the current Cervelo R3 and S3 models. In reviews, the R3 is described as having geometry that is close to an endurance bike and the S3 is described as head down race geometry - but the stack and trace figures are almost identical.

Size 56 R3. Stack 580mm. Reach 387mm. Trail 57mm
Size 56 S3. Stack 580mm. Reach 386mm. Trail 57.1mm

Does this mean that the figures - even within the same manufacturer - are all but meaningless?

NitrousOxide
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Re: Does stack and reach work?

Postby NitrousOxide » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:44 am

Sounds like a great bit of marketing garbage to me by Cervelo stating those two models are different bike types, because stack/reach is a valid way of comparing models and frame sizes IMO.

My 58cm Cube is definitely in the "endurance/sportive" camp, 388mm reach and 610mm stack.
================
2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
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Asprilla
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Re: Does stack and reach work?

Postby Asprilla » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:54 am

I'm actually surprised there is a 1mm difference between the R3 and S3. I always thought they were identical, they certainly were in the past.

Throw in the R5 at 572mm / 389mm and it certainly makes things confusing. However, I don't think Cervelo talk about the R series as 'endurance' any more as they now have the C series in that space. The only difference between R and S is the aero vs compliance rather than geometry.
Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
Sun - Cervelo R3
Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX

joey54321
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Re: Does stack and reach work?

Postby joey54321 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:44 am

Yes, I thought the R was the 'compliant, lightweight climber bike' and the S was the 'all for aero'. After all, many of the Cervelo pros while use the R in competition. It's still very much a race bike.

TimothyW
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Re: Does stack and reach work?

Postby TimothyW » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:18 pm

Yeah, just reviewers/marketers talking shite.

With that said though, handlebars can make a big difference to effective reach/stack so depending on what is stock it might confer a difference between the two bikes, eg if the racey one has deep long drops where the endurance one has shallow short reach bars.

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Singleton
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Re: Does stack and reach work?

Postby Singleton » Thu Sep 12, 2019 13:22 pm

Thanks for the comments.
In comparaison, the C3 is higher

Size 56 C3. Stack 595. Reach 382 mm

This was comparing bikes from the same manufacturer - but what about doing so between different manufacturers?
For example, if the stack is measured to the middle of the top of the headtube, is that always the lowest point for the bars to go or might I need to fit a spacer in some cases?

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Asprilla
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Re: Does stack and reach work?

Postby Asprilla » Thu Sep 12, 2019 13:29 pm

Stack is generally measured consistently and doesn't take usually into account any spacers or even the stack height of the headset as these are things that you might change. Flipping the stem will have an impact on handlebar position so Stack & Reach should only be considered a starting point.

My R3 has 20mm of spacers under the stem.
Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
Sun - Cervelo R3
Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX

bristolpete
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Re: Does stack and reach work?

Postby bristolpete » Fri Sep 13, 2019 06:38 am

Reach more important as reach it the killer not drop based on stack.

Of course the important thing is having some idea what your ideal / required reach is, is a nice start.

RoubaixMB
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Re: Does stack and reach work?

Postby RoubaixMB » Fri Sep 13, 2019 07:02 am

Derailing the thread slightly, and picking up on the R3/ S3 distinction - presumably for a mere mortal an R3 with deep rim wheels is going to be as near as dammit as quick as an S3. The wattage advantages of aero bikes over non-aero bikes always seem to be quoted using ridiculous speeds like 40km at 40km/h. I mean obviously I'd buy both if I could, and the S3 is about the best looking bike (in Sigma Sport anyway), but....

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Asprilla
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Re: Does stack and reach work?

Postby Asprilla » Fri Sep 13, 2019 07:57 am

Having previously owned a number of Soloists and S1s I was faced with the same dilemma (I still am when I see an S2/3 on eBay) and I chose the R3. The aero benefits of the S3 and the stiffer front end won't benefit me as I don't race and my ftp doesn't start with a 3, Neither does my age anymore, so I chose compliance and comfort.

The R3 is designed for cobbles so what better bike could you have for the Surrey lanes?
Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
Sun - Cervelo R3
Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX

RoubaixMB
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Re: Does stack and reach work?

Postby RoubaixMB » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:38 am

Asprilla wrote:Having previously owned a number of Soloists and S1s I was faced with the same dilemma (I still am when I see an S2/3 on eBay) and I chose the R3. The aero benefits of the S3 and the stiffer front end won't benefit me as I don't race and my ftp doesn't start with a 3, Neither does my age anymore, so I chose compliance and comfort.

The R3 is designed for cobbles so what better bike could you have for the Surrey lanes?


That's kinda where I'm at...hoping the cycle exchange place gets one in soon.

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Asprilla
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Re: Does stack and reach work?

Postby Asprilla » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:22 am

RoubaixMB wrote:
Asprilla wrote:Having previously owned a number of Soloists and S1s I was faced with the same dilemma (I still am when I see an S2/3 on eBay) and I chose the R3. The aero benefits of the S3 and the stiffer front end won't benefit me as I don't race and my ftp doesn't start with a 3, Neither does my age anymore, so I chose compliance and comfort.

The R3 is designed for cobbles so what better bike could you have for the Surrey lanes?


That's kinda where I'm at...hoping the cycle exchange place gets one in soon.


I bought mine as a 2017 frameset when the updated 2018 came out. You can still get them NOS for around £1,600
Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
Sun - Cervelo R3
Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX

MugenSi
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Re: Does stack and reach work?

Postby MugenSi » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:38 am

I used stack and reach solely to decide my latest bike.

I had two bikes and so used how they rode as a determining factor when deciding on my new bike. Seat tube angle and steerer angle can also play a small part especially seat tube as it determines how far you are behind the BB but its only a small factor as the vast majority of bikes will only vary by 1 degree at most and only 0.5 in most cases.

My three road bikes are all very close in stack and reach to each other so I have them all set up more or less identical to each other with the same length stems, seat post set back and I also have the same bars and saddles on all three of them.


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