Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Wed Aug 14, 2019 22:55 pm

Seems OK on them for now. He might long term but it depends ont he rider not there weight. F20 in general are too light to build a reliable rear wheel in 28H. even in 32h they are iffy. The difference in lateral and radial stiffness between a 32H nemesis and F20 rim is real.

The 28h excelights will build up and be rideable and you may get on with them in the sense they wont give you problems but a 32h rear wheel with a similar rim will feel more direct when putting the power down.

the best wheels are the ones which you dont notice and feel effortless under you. I had that feeling tonight on my FIR tubular rims (shallow 400g rims) built with 32F/32R spoke count with alpina 2.0/1.7/2.0mm spokes on chorus hubs. Utterly sublime as I dont know they are there.

too many assume lighter is better. dont fall into that trap.

Ambrosio dont make the F20 anymore. the lightest tubular rim on the market is the mavic Open Pro T. that comes in CD finish which is classy.
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apv1
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby apv1 » Sun Aug 18, 2019 13:24 pm

Have a question:
Why is my rear wheel rubbing on my brakes during hard efforts/high torque?

Rider weight: 69kg
Brake type: bottom bracket rim brake
Wheel: hand built dimpled aero 58mm
Hubs: DT240s
Wheel condition: used once
Lacing type: j bend spokes 20/24, radial 2 cross.

I’ve read the slow twitch forum and the fact that my brake is at the bottom bracket makes things more confusing for me.

The hubs don’t have play.

I haven’t spoken to the wheel builder yet but will do soon , was hoping some internet strangers could point me in a direction so I know what to look for and ask.

Thanks in advanced

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby ugo.santalucia » Mon Aug 19, 2019 13:10 pm

Doesn't seem to be anything wrong with your wheels' construction, probably the pads sit too close to the rim, a bit of lateral flex is to be expected

Craigus89
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby Craigus89 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:53 am

thecycleclinic wrote:first wheel build well Miche hubs or the Zenith offering are pretty good. Formula track hubs are a heavy lump but cheap.

As for spokes buy double butted silver. sapim race is what I like but any double butted spoke will do the job well.

As for rims, you get what you pay for. A pair of DT Swiss R460 rims dont cost much neither do the Kinlin XR22T's. The cheaper Kinlin XC 279 is good rim too.

To keep the cost down I would get the formula hub, sapim race silver spokes and the kinlin rim or the DT Swiss r460's.


Thanks for this. Are the Kinlin XR200 available in 32h variety? Do you think that they would be a bit too flexy for a fixed build?

Also wondering if the Sapim laser spokes will be suitable rather than race to save a little weight for not much more cost, but from doing more reading perhaps not ideal for the rear particularly on a fixed wheel?

Currently thinking as you suggest, DT R460 rims, sapim race spokes but with the Miche hubs, comes to about £190 and weigh in less than 2kg which is nice.

TimothyW
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby TimothyW » Wed Aug 21, 2019 13:13 pm

Use aci alpina dB spokes from cycle basket, mid section of spoke is 1.7mm so slightly lighter than sapim race and considerably cheaper.

Not had any problems in my several builds with them.

bobones
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby bobones » Thu Aug 22, 2019 09:55 am

+1 on the ACI Alpina spokes if you're looking to keep costs down without compromising quality. 24p for silver or 45p for black with brass nipples is great value, but they're not as light as lasers.

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby ugo.santalucia » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:27 am

Used to be 10p a pop for Alpina silver... I guess Brexit has hit hard on those :-)

Craigus89
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby Craigus89 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 14:54 pm

Thanks for that recommendation, will definitely go for those over the sapim race as that is quite a big saving relatively speaking.

thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Fri Aug 23, 2019 22:21 pm

For track wheel the Kinlin XR200 rims are fine with any spokes. sapim race or those alpinas suggested would be cheaper though and easier to build with. I have some alpina spokes and while you can buld good wheels with them I never like the spoke. They bend in way a sapim doesn't and the finish on them is not that lustourious. I'm being picky now and made a commercial decsion but for the home builder aplina spoke should be fine.
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thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Fri Aug 23, 2019 22:38 pm

apv1 ugo maybe right about the pads being too close but that not the only reason

You have a deep rim supported by 24 thin spokes (probably as that what everyone uses). then you lace it a hub with 17/33mm flange spacing. the cause of the rub is the spokes dont impart enough lateral stiffness to keep the rim mid point between the brake pads when you side load and bend the wheel when out of the saddle.

Increasing the lateral stiffness of the rim will make matter worse. Using a latterally less stiff rim will reduce rub.

Spoke count could increase but s difficult now spoke guage to increase and that makes the spokes stiffer.

The hub however is important. the main reason why I refuse to build with DT swiss rad rim brake hubs is the shallow NDS bracing angle. 11 speed hubs are what they are. you are limited to 17mm spacing DS. however there is no valid reason not to position your NDS flange 37 or 38mm from centre. That will go along way to resolving the brake rub issue as a larger NDS bracing angle does improve by about 15% the lateral stiffness the spokes impart over what the DT swiss hub offers to the wheel and thus it helps keep the rim between the brake tracks.

Essentially the components used dont complement each other. The to resolve this without change the hub or rim is to use thicker spokes like the Sapim CX sprint or Force. Pillar have a few options too.
http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby ugo.santalucia » Tue Aug 27, 2019 08:26 am

DT 240 is fine for 58 mm rims, that's what it is designed for. I think the construction of the wheel is very adequate and there is not a lot of room for improvement...

Open the pads a bit and forget about it

apv1
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby apv1 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 18:48 pm

Thanks both, though I feel like you two are standing of different sides of the fence. @malcom @ugo

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby ugo.santalucia » Fri Aug 30, 2019 13:55 pm

apv1 wrote:Thanks both, though I feel like you two are standing of different sides of the fence. @malcom @ugo


In principle I agree with Malcolm, the wider the flange the better, but since you have very deep rims, then the DT 240 is more than adequate. You might make it stiffer by using a thicker gauge spoke, probably DT Swiss aero-comp would be the best choice, but it's an expensive upgrade (75 quid of spokes, plus another 40 or so to rebuild the wheel), when the most obvious solution is to spread the pads a little bit wider apart

thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Fri Aug 30, 2019 15:41 pm

Ugo is correct about how the cost here. Dt swiss for some of there wheels use the dt 240 hub with a shell with 17/38mm spacing. I don't know if they do thos for there deep section rimmed wheels.

The other reason is dual pivot brakes for the rear. There is no need for them. My preference has always been campagnolo single pivot brake for the rear. Sadly campag have stopped making them and modern shimano brake lever cable pull does not complement a single pivot lever well. It a shame it punters buy brakes where they can lock the wheel easily thinking that will stop them faster.

Have you heard the latest boost spacing for road bikes. FFS
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MrB123
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby MrB123 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 19:58 pm


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drlodge
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby drlodge » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:42 am

I get my wheels from Malcolm now. First it was Harry Rowland but he only builds with a small selection of components. Ugo built me a couple of sets but since he's moved out of the area I find Malcolm to be very good. Its the design - or selection of components - where a good wheel builder comes into his own. I get wheels that are fit for my purpose, at a decent price, are reliable and easily fixed should something break or wear out.
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RoubaixMB
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby RoubaixMB » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:26 pm

drlodge wrote:I get my wheels from Malcolm now. First it was Harry Rowland but he only builds with a small selection of components. Ugo built me a couple of sets but since he's moved out of the area I find Malcolm to be very good. Its the design - or selection of components - where a good wheel builder comes into his own. I get wheels that are fit for my purpose, at a decent price, are reliable and easily fixed should something break or wear out.


That's the discount on your next set sorted :D

TimothyW
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby TimothyW » Wed Sep 11, 2019 13:12 pm

You'll need that discount if you happen to want Open Pro carbon rims.... rrp £545 each. Ouch.

PBlakeney
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby PBlakeney » Wed Sep 11, 2019 13:24 pm

The best bit about handbuilts is that once you have paid for decent hubs then future repairs or upgrades are cheap compared to off the shelf complete wheelsets.
Assuming well maintained hubs.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.

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beanstalk
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby beanstalk » Wed Sep 18, 2019 20:02 pm

apv1 wrote:Have a question:
Why is my rear wheel rubbing on my brakes during hard efforts/high torque?

Rider weight: 69kg
Brake type: bottom bracket rim brake
Wheel: hand built dimpled aero 58mm
Hubs: DT240s
Wheel condition: used once
Lacing type: j bend spokes 20/24, radial 2 cross.

I’ve read the slow twitch forum and the fact that my brake is at the bottom bracket makes things more confusing for me.

The hubs don’t have play.

I haven’t spoken to the wheel builder yet but will do soon , was hoping some internet strangers could point me in a direction so I know what to look for and ask.

Thanks in advanced

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debunki ... _3449.html

They call it rim stiffness vs. spoke stiffness.
Your wheel with the stiff deep section rim and low spoke count would be "rim stiff" causing the rim as a whole canting sideways and rubbing the pads.
The other extrema would be a very shallow rim profile that only deforms at the contact point to the street.


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