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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 06:08 am
by ugo.santalucia
torino wrote:Building a The Hydra on Hope Pro4 hub, front only as I got the rear from a pro-builder. Standard stuff, 3x with Sapim Race and brass nipples. 32H. Wondering how tight the disc side spokes should be. Currently around 105kgf, pretty much uniform. Not sure if I tighten them a bit more or if it is just fine. Rear wheel is tight as hell, 125kgf, pretty uniform.

Builder used some nipple washers for the rear wheel, so I've also used in the front wheel (PITA to build those since I got 2 or 3 washers inside the rim and it was a nightmare to take them out).


Depends on the non disc side. If the rim is asymmetric, that allows for similar tensions on both sides, in which case your 105 KgF might be enough, if not, then the non disc side might end up having too low tension, in which case you need to increase it.

What matters is the average tension on the wheel... say you have 120/60 and that works fine (average 90), if you lower to 100, then you end up with 50 on the other side and an average of 75, which might be too low

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 09:53 am
by torino
I see. I will check but probably the non-disc side is about 60 on average. To be on the safe side I will increase disc side to 115, and thats it.

For me the most difficult part of wheelbuilding is knowing when to stop tightening those spokes! I guess experience helps a lot here.

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:15 am
by ugo.santalucia
torino wrote:I see. I will check but probably the non-disc side is about 60 on average. To be on the safe side I will increase disc side to 115, and thats it.

For me the most difficult part of wheelbuilding is knowing when to stop tightening those spokes! I guess experience helps a lot here.


Tension depends on a lot of factors... a heavy or very strong rider will require more tension than a lighter or less powerful rider. A wheel with fewer spokes will require more tension per spoke than one with more spokes.

Also, I suspect you are using a Park Tool, whose calibration is generally way off (typically over reads tension), which doesn't help.

Some general rules about wheelbuilding

https://whosatthewheel.com/2017/11/12/t ... -dynamics/

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:32 am
by torino
I have a reference wheel that has 1250N average on rear drive-side.

I always use the same type of spokes (dt comp or sapim race), and measure tensions by first calibrating the park tool tensionmeter against the reference wheel.

The Tensioner app also is used for cross validating the readings. I’ve found that their their readings are quite accurate considering also that no calibration is necessary.

Probably my readings are within +-5% of the true value.

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:43 am
by ugo.santalucia
torino wrote:
Probably my readings are within +-5% of the true value.


Optimistic...
I'd be happy if mine were within 15% of the correct value and I use a DT Tensio... :wink:

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 20:46 pm
by torino
ugo.santalucia wrote:Optimistic...
I'd be happy if mine were within 15% of the correct value and I use a DT Tensio... :wink:


I've never touched one, but I think it is the same deflection based mechanism as the Park Tool? The Park tool suffers from severe variations depending on how you handle it, or how fast you release the spring, or whether you are using your right or left hand... So you need to be very consistent in the way you measure, and of course use the same technique on the reference wheel. The conversion values on the TM mean nothing. The Tensio is much better quality stuff for sure. Do you calibrate it often?

On the other hand, the app gives extremely consistent readings, no matter how you tone the spoke (hard, soft, left or right hand, any finger, etc.). It may be biased, but it is precise. But if you are measuring against a reference wheel with the same spoke types, and you assume (this is the key point here!) that the reference wheel is correct, then you are fine.

The problem is that if I want to build a wheel with anything other than races or comps then I need another reference wheel. Or just trust the absolute readings from the app, which I think are pretty close, at least for races.

Maybe someone could offer reference wheels with 2 or 3 spoke types...

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 20:12 pm
by Furrag
Bought a second hand Speed Concept about 4 years ago. Came with a wheelset, DT Swiss 240s hubs, 32 spokes, and a rim with no decals on. The rim is now cracked, so I need to replace it, but I can't ID it.

The rim has B41 469 stamped into it beside a spoke hole on the tape side, but there is no positive search for this.

I believe it may well be a Mavic Open Pro based on:
Double eyelets
Box rim in nature
Measurements of rim depth, ID and OD

So do I buy an Open Pro and get a shop to rebuild? Or do I choose another shallow alloy rim for training purposes (I have a set of deeps), and get them to buy new spokes too?

My issue is that I loved the wheels. I've had numerous other shallow rims, and these just felt robust. If the latter, recommendations would be nice for a rim & spokes.

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 21:11 pm
by ugo.santalucia
DT 240 don't suit shallow rims... poor flange geometry means they are best suited to deeper rims. I would cut the spokes and rebuild on a 30 mm rim... Kinlin 31 or similar

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 22:55 pm
by thecycleclinic
Tension the hydra front wheel as much as you like. I would tension like s rear wheel. No reason not too.

I have a calibration jig to check my guages. The problem with getting good tension readings is twist. Twist affects the tension reading inflating or reducing it. Plucking the spoke reveals this.

As for the DT rims. Ugo is right about the DT hub but a kinlin XR22t or the Mavic open pro UST rim build fine on the 240hub in 32h drilling. Done this and the wheel is fine. Since you have the hub already you might as well use it.

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 21:18 pm
by Furrag
Cheers chaps. How's a DT Swiss RR511 as an alternative to the XR31T?

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 22:45 pm
by TimothyW
They're very similar. The DT Swiss is a tiny bit less wide - I've never used them but had the previous model rr585 which was very solid - I wouldn't have any reservations about using them.

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 00:53 am
by thecycleclinic
The RR511 should be more expensive but may not be but it is heavier by 30g is it. The main difference though in the internal profile. You should be able to notice the raised shelf on the kinlin vs the flat shelf on the DT rim. On the DT rim friction and the gluing effect of the sealant will try to retain a tubeless tyre with no air but the retention may be weak. with the kinlin a tubeless tyre has a hard time unseating because of the inclined shelf. So one rim is better for tubeless tyres than the other as I think unseating is bad. both can be run tubeless though. I have to say that because some people misinterpret my comments as black and white where as it more shades of grey. also not the difference in bead hook shape and orientation. The DT swiss rim bead hook will put more stress on the tyre bead than the kinlin rim will.

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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 20:31 pm
by Alfa_m
I'm currently thinking of purchasing a descent set of summer wheels for my CAAD12. This is my case:
- Actual wheels are Maddux 2.0 disc (6-hole), on the new set I would prefer centerlock
- I have no intention to race or to have real high speed group rides => focus shouldn't be on aero
- I live in a region with some short but rather steep slopes (Flemish Ardennes), a lot of them are "cobblestoned"... => weight is a factor but not at all cost due to the cobbles
- I'm only weighing 68kg so the wheels won't have to endure much rider-induced stress
- Chainstay clearance is limited, the max tire size on my bike is 28c
- Yearly mileage: 4000mi

With these criteria in mind I started searching, for now three options have caught my attention:
1. JRA Gecko
2. JRA Mahi Mahi 30mm
3. Hunt 30 Carbon Aero Disc

What would be your weapon of choice? Correspond the characteristics of the wheels on my shortlist with my selection criteria, or are there some hidden catches? Or would you go for alternatives (budget is approx. 900£)?

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 23:37 pm
by thecycleclinic
30mm and aero. That a stretch. 30mm is not even mid depth.

If you spending £900 on wheels get sero wheels they at least will improve your pace. that means 45mm to 5mm deep.

With carbon there is no point in having shallower unless your using gravel tyres which are not aero so a shallow rim is fine then.

With the 30mm deep carbon rims well they are not that stiff, low spoke count so fatigue maybe more of an issue for some. such wheels can be light and feel good to ride on but do jack all for your pace so have you spent wisely?

Get deeper aero wheels. You may not be racing but if your spending that kind of money you might as well or noth bother at all.

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 09:40 am
by ugo.santalucia
I need a new spoke key, as my second DT Swiss has split and superglue doesn't seem to hold the two parts together. NO MORE DT KEYS

I have noticed the yellow Sapim key is 3.45 mm, which doesn't seem right for Sapim/DT nipples... can anyone comment or recommend something else?

PS: I don't want a red Spokey, I have one for emergency road repair, but it's not a good tool

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:40 am
by arlowood
ugo.santalucia wrote:I need a new spoke key, as my second DT Swiss has split and superglue doesn't seem to hold the two parts together. NO MORE DT KEYS

I have noticed the yellow Sapim key is 3.45 mm, which doesn't seem right for Sapim/DT nipples... can anyone comment or recommend something else?

PS: I don't want a red Spokey, I have one for emergency road repair, but it's not a good tool


Park Tools Black (3.23mm) claims to be for DT square nipples amongst others

https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Park-T ... lsrc=aw.ds

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:56 am
by TimothyW
What's wrong with a red spokey then? Have you ever managed to break one of them?

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:31 am
by thecycleclinic
the sapim key fits Sapim just fine after all it sapims tool for there nipples. It all I use. Never use DT Swiss nipples because I dont have any.

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:31 am
by ugo.santalucia
TimothyW wrote:What's wrong with a red spokey then? Have you ever managed to break one of them?


No, but it's not a good key... it's a bit tight and multiplies the time required to do any job.
The old type DT Swiss, which looks exactly the same as the Spokey was the best I ever owned, but eventually the square section wore off.
The new DT ones, made of metal are total rubbish as the two parts come apart after a while. I got the first replaced under warranty, but this one is a few years old

Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:32 am
by ugo.santalucia
thecycleclinic wrote:the sapim key fits Sapim just fine after all it sapims tool for there nipples. It all I use. Never use DT Swiss nipples because I dont have any.


OK, so I'll get the yellow one :D