Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Tue Oct 23, 2018 16:40 pm

As I said you would have to buy them for £15 ( that's what bike 24 are paying from DT Swiss) to sell at £30 but Madison though sell at £23 + VAT so because it is not always as round as I would like it to be, suddenly it becomes the worst rim in the world.

I judge a rims worth on its specification and consistency not how it looks. The kinlin is wider, lighter, as stiff, often rounder and has better tubeless compatibility in particular for wide cross or gravel tubeless tyres running low pressures. These have a higher chance of burping on the the DT Swiss rim.

So what is the advantage of the DT rim except saving a few quid if buying of bike 24. However compared to the archetype the R460 is not a bad choice.

Where the R460 is better is for tubed tyres. Tyre fitting is easier. For tubeless tyres the kinlin has the edge and if tubeless tape is used tubed tyre fitting is not hard. Even schwalbe marathons slip on.

I think the last R460 I fitted a tubeless tyre to needed 4 wraps of stans like tape to enable it to inflate. That's two to many in my book. I am fussy.
Last edited by thecycleclinic on Tue Oct 23, 2018 17:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ugo.santalucia
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby ugo.santalucia » Tue Oct 23, 2018 17:17 pm

Agree the decals on a DT 460 are very tasteful for a 30-35 quid rim. It is a sleeve joint rim, so perfect roundness can be an issue, as well as seamless joint. Neither of them seem to be a real world problem.

It fits all my basic requirements of robustness, wide availability, good choice of hole counts, reasonable weight, foolproof wear indicator and decent width.

bobones
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby bobones » Tue Oct 23, 2018 18:23 pm

thecycleclinic wrote:So what is the advantage of the DT rim except saving a few quid if buying of bike 24.

Better looks, wear indicator, brand awareness ...

Apart from buying Borg badged Kinlins, are there any decent decals to jazz up their looks a bit?

thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Tue Oct 23, 2018 20:17 pm

You can make some decals. The out of roundness is generally not at the join. It rarely over a mm so you can true most of it out.

Yes the r460 looks fine but that's not a a reason for me to pick a rim. I get request for unlogoed kinlins often. So decals are not for everyone. I don't care about brand awareness or I would be building with the R460.

I can tell when a rim is worn without a wear indicator. I use my eyes sorry to be facisous but it should be obvious when a rim is worn. Wear indicators tend to show a worn rim about early which is why I have not had them put on the kinlins.

I don't think the R460 is a bad rim it's just my proporities are different to yours. I.e you care about things that are irrelevant to me.
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dgranada
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby dgranada » Fri Oct 26, 2018 05:40 am

bobones wrote:You should also consider the Mavic Open Pro UST rim - it's wide (19mm internal), light (~430g), stiff and looks great IMO. I recently built up a 24F/28R set on Bitex RAF10/RAR9 super-light hubs with Sapim Laser (DT Revolution equiv.) front and Sapim D-Light (DT Supercomp equiv.) rear that came in sub 1400g with brass nipples. I'm really impressed with the ride quality and the Bitex hubs have held up well so far in the wet.

Despite what Malcolm says, I also rate the DT Swiss R460 rim: it's a bit heavier (and cheaper) than the Mavic, but I've never had any problems with tyres unseating or being difficult to mount. A few other users here like them too.


Hey, thanks. I'll definitely look into it.

Svetty
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby Svetty » Fri Oct 26, 2018 08:19 am

thecycleclinic wrote: However compared to the archetype the R460 is not a bad choice.


Has the quality of the Archetype gone down? Until relatively recently most people - including me - found that it was a reasonably priced robust, easy to build, reasonably wide rim.
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thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:04 am

I think you need to look at rims specifications over brand names and price. This is what I have been getting at all along. The brand is not relevant the rim profile, wall thicknesses...

What does quality even mean. Id be dammed if I know.

The kinlin and r460 are wider, tubeless compatible, at least as stiff, same weight or lower depending on the rim.....

So if your comparing specifications then it is quite clear the archetype needs an update.
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TimothyW
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby TimothyW » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:41 pm

And the killer is that the Archetype is more expensive. No way is it worth near twice the cost of a dt r460.

Which is where reasonably priced falls down.

Dimpsey
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby Dimpsey » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:56 am

Hi
Looking for a wide-ish rim for CX, with potential to run narrow XC tyres and 28mm road tyres.
Would the Kinlin TL-21 with it's 21mm internal width be suitable?
Or am I asking for too much of a rim to cover such a range of widths?
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby Dimpsey » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:02 am

Double post

bobones
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby bobones » Wed Oct 31, 2018 14:10 pm

19c seems to be the maximum recommended width for 28mm tyres, and that will do up to 62mm wide tyres.

See here https://bikerumor.com/2016/08/12/tech-s ... t-results/

thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Wed Oct 31, 2018 16:02 pm

depends on how big the 28mm tyre is. A conti GP4000s tyre would be fine so would a schwalbe Pro one. A cotton tyre may not be fine long term and a IRC 28mm tyre is too small. The chart from mavic is a coverall but in truth not all 28mm tyres are the same so you you'll be fine with some but noth others.

21mm tyres are for CX/gravel tyres really.
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby Shortfall » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:21 pm

Malcolm, would you recommend your 50c carbon aero wheels for a 105kg rider? I have a set of your Borg 31 alloy wheels in 24/28 spoke pattern which have proved plenty strong enough.

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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby Dimpsey » Mon Nov 26, 2018 22:25 pm

Hi
I have a set of DT Swiss 240 rim brake hubs from an old RR21 wheelset. Is it possible/worth rebuilding with new/different rims? I think the Spokes were DT Swiss aerolite. Apologies if this has been asked before.
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thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Tue Nov 27, 2018 00:19 am

In thruth I have no idea how they would cope with a 105kg rider because your heavy enough that how you ride makes an awfully big difference.

No the hubs are not worth reusing first problem is the hub wheels are not the same as the 350, or 240 sp hubs so your wheel builder will have to guess the spoke lengths for the new rim.
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TimothyW
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby TimothyW » Tue Nov 27, 2018 06:43 am

What's wrong with the old RR21s? You can probably get the re-rimmed if it is just that the rims are worn.

As for whether the hubs are worth reusing depends on the state of them. Measuring the hub to calculate spoke lengths is hardly an insurmountable problem (especially if the wheels are currently still intact).

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby ugo.santalucia » Tue Nov 27, 2018 08:01 am

Dimpsey wrote:Hi
I have a set of DT Swiss 240 rim brake hubs from an old RR21 wheelset. Is it possible/worth rebuilding with new/different rims? I think the Spokes were DT Swiss aerolite. Apologies if this has been asked before.
Image


That was a 20/24 holes wheelset, so there are many options to replace the rims if yours are worn. Spokes might or might not need replacing, depending on whether the length is compatible.

In the best case scenario is an easy and inexpensive re-rim job. The rims are proably DT Swiss RR 411, alternative rims that use the same spoke length could be Velocity A 23.

Where are you based Dimpsey?

thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:25 pm

I read it as dimpsey has the hubs out of the wheels.

If this is the case you have to guess the spoke lengths. If dimpsey has the wheels then you can measure the spoke length backwards calculate the fractional crossing and use that to calculate the new lengths for the new rims.

If there is a rim with matching erd then it even simpler. So it really depends.

Given the nature of the rr21 wheels shallow rims and low spoke count it probably is not advisable to reuse spokes. There is no way of telling how fatigued they are.

Given they are straight pull hubs arrive spokes are best used and custom cut aero spokes or boxed DT Swiss aeorlites are not cheap. Hense my statement it probably not worth it.
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thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Tue Nov 27, 2018 17:00 pm

that rr21 diecut wheel is laced 1x looking at the photo, another reason why I dont thick it is worth it.

DT swiss for the diecut wheels increase the flange spacing to increase lateral stiffness (why dont they do this for the hubs they sell through madison?) and the 1x lacing is to shortern the spoke and increase lateral stiffness again over 2x but not by much. the down side is 1x is not very good at transmitting torque so the tension changes when pedalling will be higher than with 2x lacing. They have to do this because the rim is so shallow and the spokes so thin (aerolites probably).
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ugo.santalucia
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby ugo.santalucia » Tue Nov 27, 2018 17:20 pm

thecycleclinic wrote:that rr21 diecut wheel is laced 1x looking at the photo, another reason why I dont thick it is worth it.

DT swiss for the diecut wheels increase the flange spacing to increase lateral stiffness (why dont they do this for the hubs they sell through madison?) and the 1x lacing is to shortern the spoke and increase lateral stiffness again over 2x but not by much. the down side is 1x is not very good at transmitting torque so the tension changes when pedalling will be higher than with 2x lacing. They have to do this because the rim is so shallow and the spokes so thin (aerolites probably).


A lot of blurb Malcolm... IF the guy managed to get to the end of the rims, they can't be that bad...


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