Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

What bike and bike bits should you buy?
Kingstonian
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby Kingstonian » Wed Jun 19, 2019 13:05 pm

davetex wrote:Can anyone recommend some 50mm ish carbon rims? Keen to build up a pair of deeper wheels for crits



I've had a set from DCR for a year now, can't fault them at all. Fast, have had no issues whatsoever with crosswinds despite a few ridiculously windy rides in Holland and Cambridgeshire !!! They do both rim and disk brake, so cover either angle.

bobones
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Corroded nipples

Postby bobones » Mon Jun 24, 2019 19:18 pm

Image

What's the story with these nipples? Is this par for course with aluminium or is there some other force at work?

They came from 3 year old Chinese carbon wheels that don't see a lot of rain, but they are washed with TFR solution and other car washing detergents.

The head sheared off one on a ride, which I replaced, but when the same happened a few weeks later I thought I'd better check them all. Lots of white powdery lumps shook out of the rims and a good few nipples broke when I loosened them. The spokes themselves are in perfect condition.

I am going to replace these with Sapim aluminium nipples, but I was reading about possible galvanic reaction between carbon, steel and aluminium so perhaps better to use brass?

TimothyW
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby TimothyW » Mon Jun 24, 2019 19:21 pm

Yeah, if you don't want to do it again in another three years use brass.

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby ugo.santalucia » Tue Jun 25, 2019 08:06 am

pretty much all alloy nipples end up like that if you actually use the wheels. Get brass

thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Tue Jun 25, 2019 08:25 am

Washers help alot with carbon rims. Alloy nipples and carbon rims will set up a nice circuit which the steel washer reduces due to the lower difference in chemical reactivity between steel and aluminium.

The anodising on sapim nipples does appear to be more consistent than others too. In addition the use of thread lick on the spokes reduces corrosion.

Alloy nipples also shear when the spokes are too short. With alloy nipples the spikes must come to the tip of the nipple driver flats or better still to the top of the nipple. Wheels that flex show more nipple failures too so alloy nipples are best used with stiff wheels.

More than 50%of my wheels use alloy nipples and yet I manage to avoid failures. The number of failures is very small running at under 1% of wheels. There is nothing wro g with alloy nipples, they just have to be used correctly.
http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby ugo.santalucia » Tue Jun 25, 2019 09:05 am

thecycleclinic wrote:More than 50%of my wheels use alloy nipples and yet I manage to avoid failures. The number of failures is very small running at under 1% of wheels. There is nothing wro g with alloy nipples, they just have to be used correctly.


It's a matter of where you draw the line. For me 1% is a lot... for anything that is less than 5 years old, I would like that number to be zero.
Bear in mind that 1% is probably more like 10 or 20% among those who actually ride their bike regularly, rather than buying a pair of wheels to do 300 miles per year when it's sunny.
In my experience, most of those who buy a bespoke set of wheels have more than one bike and more than one pair of wheels per bike.
I have one bike (plus a Brompton) with one set of wheels, can't allow myself nonsense like alloy nipples, soft and chewy freehubs & co.

thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:48 pm

I said less than 1%. Maybe one or two cases a year with wheels that are getting a bit anyway. Out of a few hundred wheelsets per year that's a low failure rate. So your estimation ugo is way off.
http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.

davetex
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby davetex » Thu Jun 27, 2019 21:09 pm

Different application, but with fixings on carbon dinghy spars we'd always use a paste to prevent galvanic corrosion, this stuff https://www.amazon.co.uk/Duralac-Anti-C ... B00LB6EUEO

Not sure how practical it'd be on a carbon rim.

fstrownyver
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby fstrownyver » Wed Aug 07, 2019 09:29 am

I would enjoy a black colour scheme libros gratis
with some red thrown in. What are my choices? My bike is matt black (boring) But I did think about adding the mavic ksyrium sl's on the bike at first but as stated wanted something new. (I am a bike tart. I admit it :D )
Last edited by fstrownyver on Sat Aug 10, 2019 14:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby ugo.santalucia » Thu Aug 08, 2019 14:06 pm

fstrownyver wrote:I would enjoy a black colour scheme with some red thrown in. What are my choices? My bike is matt black (boring) But I did think about adding the mavic ksyrium sl's on the bike at first but as stated wanted something new. (I am a bike tart. I admit it :D )


Hope hubs in red with black spokes and rims? Some would even build with red anodised nipples, but personally I wouldn't bother

TimothyW
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby TimothyW » Thu Aug 08, 2019 14:16 pm

Halo offer their rims in a few different colours, as mentioned upthread I believe them to be rebranded Kinlin (eg Devaura is the XR31t)

https://www.halowheels.com/category/components/rims/

thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Thu Aug 08, 2019 15:53 pm

only 20F and 24 16:8 rear though. I happen to have triplet hubs as well but in black.

/it will be a gloss red too and you may not like that. Remember red hubs are not to everyone tastes and will make your wheel hard to sell on.
http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.

davetex
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby davetex » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:24 pm

So first go at building a front disc wheel, possibly dumb questions, is there an advantage to using an asymmetric rim on the front when using discs? Presumably it would help even out the tension caused by the different in flange spacing from the disc tabs.

Michael432000
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby Michael432000 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 13:00 pm

Hi.

Looking for wheels for my lovely old Colnago C40. Been let down by two companies who took my money but could not provide the Ambosio Excellight rims I wanted. Though I still think I can get them in 28 hole front and rear. Apparently these rims are good quality, light, and they fit the period.

Getting fed up with all the aggravation. How about just settling for some Campag Neutrons ready made? Or any other rim and spoke count suggestions?

I’m 64kg ex-racer.

Thank you.

TimothyW
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby TimothyW » Tue Aug 13, 2019 13:44 pm

davetex wrote:So first go at building a front disc wheel, possibly dumb questions, is there an advantage to using an asymmetric rim on the front when using discs? Presumably it would help even out the tension caused by the different in flange spacing from the disc tabs.

Tension balance is much better on front disks than it is on most rears nowadays (off the top of my head I think the tension is something close to 70% ie then less tense side is at 70% of the tension of the other side, for rears this is often below 50% on the non drive side)

So it is fine to use asymmetric rims but I wouldn't say there was any advantage to it really, just use whatever you have or can get....

Craigus89
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby Craigus89 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 19:48 pm

I'm thinking of doing a first wheel build soon for a fixie project and I'm looking for reccomendations on materials. It's only a fixie for the odd commute and as a general hack, but it seems like a good opportunity for an attempt at a first build.

Being for a fixie I need to use robust bits, the only thing I think I've decided is for Miche Primato hubs - cheaper reccomendations are welcome though. I want to keep the cost as low as I can, but at the same time don't want to skimp unneccesarily. I could pick up a wheelset off Wiggle for £130 odd quid, so if I could keep the cost to £150 for the bits that would be ideal, this may be ambitious though as I will need nipples, washers etc too, and a couple of tools.

I need to do some more reading, I've got Roger Musson's book already. :D

PBlakeney
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby PBlakeney » Tue Aug 13, 2019 21:32 pm

Michael432000 wrote:Hi.

Looking for wheels for my lovely old Colnago C40. Been let down by two companies who took my money but could not provide the Ambosio Excellight rims I wanted. Though I still think I can get them in 28 hole front and rear. Apparently these rims are good quality, light, and they fit the period.

Getting fed up with all the aggravation. How about just settling for some Campag Neutrons ready made? Or any other rim and spoke count suggestions?

I’m 64kg ex-racer.

Thank you.

I went from Ambrossio Excellence to H Son Plus Archetype in silver for my Master and must say that I am a happy bunny. I'm sure thecycleclinic can advise... :wink:
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.

Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.

thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Tue Aug 13, 2019 22:58 pm

The ambrosio importers have packed up and gone. I am thinking about importing them and I might get the excelights however for now forget about having wheels with them.

I can check tomorrow if JD whiskers have any left. If they do then I can get them. However the ambrosio excelight while a decent rim is very similar to the old mavic open pro. Regardless of how light you are with a shallow narrow rim the only spoke count worth having is 32H or 36h. 28H rear risk spoke failures also when building everytime you stress the wheel it will go out of true. That not confidence inspiring when it comes to send them on there merry way.

As for other rims well for narrow and shallow there is the Mavic open pro in CD finish. this looks wonderful. But for something that looks quite classy there is the H plus son TB14 which is 14mm deep and 23mm wide. Its a nice box section rim. The archetype has already been mentioned and looks good on most older bikes.

HED do the other classy looking rim and that the belgium + but its quite expensive. It's not period either.

The Velocity A23 would work well too. the finish looks a bit cheap though but it works fine as a rim. The other modern rim that is pretty decent is the DT Swis R460. I may not be period but it does the job. The kinlins I like alot possibly wont look right on this bike so I am leaving them out.

Of course you should be having the ambrosio nemesis tubular rims but the only 32H rims I have at present have some marks. I have some 36H rims and a couple of montreals. The nemesis is a tubular rim and tubs suit the C40. I would.

The mavic open pro T is the tubular remake of the reflex. This would also work. HED do the belgium C2 and I have a pair in 24H drilling. This given the rim can be made to work well (tubular rim are stiffer than there clincher counterparts).

I even have a pair of velocity escapes and some old Mavic GP4's.


So tubular or clincher. Your probbaly not thinking tubeless.

Ah I have a couple of DT Swiss rims that would work. A 28H R415 for the front and R440 28H for the rear. DT swiss did used to make some good rims. what happened?

Heres what the grey archetypes look like. the TB14 are the same but box shape and shallower.
Image
baby of cow called

A tubular build for inspiration and the H Plus Son TB14's would look similar.
Image
baby of cow called
Last edited by thecycleclinic on Tue Aug 13, 2019 23:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.

thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Tue Aug 13, 2019 23:04 pm

first wheel build well Miche hubs or the Zenith offering are pretty good. Formula track hubs are a heavy lump but cheap.

As for spokes buy double butted silver. sapim race is what I like but any double butted spoke will do the job well.

As for rims, you get what you pay for. A pair of DT Swiss R460 rims dont cost much neither do the Kinlin XR22T's. The cheaper Kinlin XC 279 is good rim too.

To keep the cost down I would get the formula hub, sapim race silver spokes and the kinlin rim or the DT Swiss r460's.
http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.

Michael432000
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby Michael432000 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:22 pm

thecycleclinic wrote:The ambrosio importers have packed up and gone. I am thinking about importing them and I might get the excelights however for now forget about having wheels with them.

I can check tomorrow if JD whiskers have any left. If they do then I can get them. However the ambrosio excelight while a decent rim is very similar to the old mavic open pro. Regardless of how light you are with a shallow narrow rim the only spoke count worth having is 32H or 36h. 28H rear risk spoke failures also when building everytime you stress the wheel it will go out of true. That not confidence inspiring when it comes to send them on there merry way.

As for other rims well for narrow and shallow there is the Mavic open pro in CD finish. this looks wonderful. But for something that looks quite classy there is the H plus son TB14 which is 14mm deep and 23mm wide. Its a nice box section rim. The archetype has already been mentioned and looks good on most older bikes.

HED do the other classy looking rim and that the belgium + but its quite expensive. It's not period either.

The Velocity A23 would work well too. the finish looks a bit cheap though but it works fine as a rim. The other modern rim that is pretty decent is the DT Swis R460. I may not be period but it does the job. The kinlins I like alot possibly wont look right on this bike so I am leaving them out.

Of course you should be having the ambrosio nemesis tubular rims but the only 32H rims I have at present have some marks. I have some 36H rims and a couple of montreals. The nemesis is a tubular rim and tubs suit the C40. I would.

The mavic open pro T is the tubular remake of the reflex. This would also work. HED do the belgium C2 and I have a pair in 24H drilling. This given the rim can be made to work well (tubular rim are stiffer than there clincher counterparts).

I even have a pair of velocity escapes and some old Mavic GP4's.


So tubular or clincher. Your probbaly not thinking tubeless.

Ah I have a couple of DT Swiss rims that would work. A 28H R415 for the front and R440 28H for the rear. DT swiss did used to make some good rims. what happened?

Heres what the grey archetypes look like. the TB14 are the same but box shape and shallower.
Image
baby of cow called

A tubular build for inspiration and the H Plus Son TB14's would look similar.
Image
baby of cow called




Hi thecycleclinic. Thank you for your comprehensive reply. Unfortunately your reply came just too late and I have a couple of excellight rims on there way in 28h. The two companies who I paid in advance for a 32h rear couldn’t come up with the goods. The guy who’s going to build them assures me the 28h will build up ok so let’s wait and see.

Thinking about it now the Nemesis tubular would have been a great choice. I have a friend of similar weight, 10 stone, who built up a pair of Ambrosio Crono F20 tubulars with a 28h front and rear, CK hubs, and he seems ok with them. The Crono rim is only 360g too compared to the 430g on the excellite.


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