Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby ugo.santalucia » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:57 pm

bobones wrote:I know a few old timers that carry a spare tyre under their saddles, but that's just a step too far for me.


As I said, that was the high point of my paranoia... then again, the road that connects the Elan Valley to Aberystwyth is fairly remote... if you get stranded there it is a very very long walk to anywhere... even just to a spot where you have mobile signal or 4G

thecycleclinic
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby thecycleclinic » Tue Dec 18, 2018 13:02 pm

Bobones you have tried some tyre plugs just not the right ones. The small thin Geninuine innoviations plugs sometime blow out for me too. Its a bit like saying I have ate a potatoe and saying all potates taste the same or cook in the same way.

Dynaplugs are just to expensive for me given I have no issue with the better plugs I now use.

The first two calamities in my last post where before I knew about/started using tyre plugs.

I have over 40000km on road tubeless tyres now. I have lost count. It could 50,000km.

On a long ride I do pack a spare tyre in the panniers as it quicker swapping at the side of the road if the a proper rpoblem than walking.
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bobones
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby bobones » Tue Dec 18, 2018 13:43 pm

I have tried a few different sizes of worms without success and frankly have wasted a whole load of time with them, but if they work for you or others, then fine...

I find the Dynaplugs far easier to use, they just work and I have confidence in them not to blow out. I'll be unlucky if I have to use more than one of these plugs a year so they're not really all that expensive.

If you stock them, they will sell!

zefs
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby zefs » Tue Dec 18, 2018 14:13 pm

@bobones If you need pliers to remove the tubeless valve nut you are overtightening it. It's there to only hold the plastic ring which is what actually seals the whole. Also it can damage the the valve by pulling it downwards if too tight.
If you remove the nut you will notice that there is no leak.

bobones
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby bobones » Tue Dec 18, 2018 16:24 pm

zefs wrote:@bobones If you need pliers to remove the tubeless valve nut you are overtightening it. It's there to only hold the plastic ring which is what actually seals the whole. Also it can damage the the valve by pulling it downwards if too tight.
If you remove the nut you will notice that there is no leak.

Sometimes cold, wet hands can't grip well enough even if they aren't stuck or done up too tightly. I've always carried a mini-leatherman type tool which has a knife and pliers attached and used the pliers for pulling loose derailleur cables out on the road so it's a good one to have in the kit tubeless or not.

thecycleclinic
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby thecycleclinic » Tue Dec 18, 2018 16:43 pm

zefs if you leave the nut loose enough that it can be undone by hand it can rattle loose and you get a leak. How do I know this you may wonder?

Bobones it not just the size of the plugs but how tacky it is. Not all plugs are the same. It's like saying all potatoes are the same. anyway. Dynaplug kits costs too much. Some of the kits are over £40. I cant sell something like that when there is a cheaper alternative that works.
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zefs
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby zefs » Tue Dec 18, 2018 18:05 pm

There is a video from Mavic recommending not using tools for the valve nut just tighten by hand, but if it's a case of cold/wet conditions then I guess you can use the tool. It didn't happen to come loose/rattle on the Mavic valves for me.

thecycleclinic
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby thecycleclinic » Wed Dec 19, 2018 23:42 pm

I tighten by hand where did I say use tools. I just tightening by hand in the shop is so tight I cant undo it without pilers at the side of the road. I had to do that last night. The GP5000 TL goes hiss quickly and the the tyre unseats on the velocity rim (building new wheels today for the bike that retain the tyre properly so I can plug the tyre next time) and I had to put a tube in. Its a good thing I had packed pliers as without them I would have been quite stuck.

If it the collar is done so it can be lossened by hand later as it been on there a while it probably too loose and can rattle loose. If its done proper hand tight then it should not rattle loose but pack pliers if you have rims where the tyre is retained without pressure.
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zefs
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby zefs » Thu Dec 20, 2018 07:04 am

Not the case with my Mavic UST wheels, so I guess it's a rim/tire combination issue.
I can actually remove the collar and there is no visible leak.

bobones
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby bobones » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:31 am

I sometimes struggle just to loosen the valve lock nut without pliers because sealant has got in there and cemented it stuck. Definitely worth carrying a set IMO, but particularly with tubeless.

Malcolm, to demonstrate the correct technique, can you shoot a video of you repairing a smooth road tyre with one of your worms (no glue) followed by inflating it to 6 or 7 bar and then leaving it to sit for a few minutes? Mine always push their way out no matter how tacky the worm is, and looking at other forums, I am not the only person with this problem.

BTW the Dynaplug kit I bought was £22.60 with 4 plugs so a good bit shy of £40. Extra plugs are less than £2 each, which is expensive compared to worms, but you can't really argue that they aren't easier to use and much less likely to work loose. I have used one plug since I got them so the cost is insignificant to the other cycling related stuff I buy. I have no confidence in worms, but I'm 100% sure these will stay in.

thecycleclinic
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby thecycleclinic » Thu Dec 20, 2018 17:01 pm

There is a video on my website. Its been there for a year or so. not the one youve been looking at a newer one.

A review from a german mag and why I am not bothering with dynaplugs. The racer kit is £40. The smaller ultralite kit is £20ish but has smaller plugs I think.

https://www.mtb-news.de/news/2018/12/18 ... eich-test/

6/7 bar now there's your problem. some plugged holes will take that pressure but not all. Nearly of all the holes that dont seal that I get can be permentaly filled with a plug either 1.5mm or 3.5mm thick. I have had only one or two where the big plug got pushed out. The one I can remember back in april got me home (90 miles in the dark) but the tyre was scrap as the plug would not hold. Some holes are simply to big to be plugged long term at 70 psi. Then the plug is a get you home thing and the tyre is scrap. I would not try and repair a tyre that a plug cannot seal at 70 psi as the tyre is compromised.

I think your expecting too much from a repair and want all holes no matter how big to repairable (as you no doubt want to save the expensive tyre). Even if they are with dynaplugs I would not, as the risk of the tyre bulging and failing mid ride maybe small but real and potentially dangerous. If all you are getting are big holes then you are unlucky. a hole bigger than 10mm is generally not going to be repaired long term. Smaller holes should be plugable long term if that is a word. Given dynaplugs are meant to only fix holes up to 6mm (I know maxalami will do holes 8-10mm without issue) maybe it how your inserting them. the video should address that. If not practice on a scrap tyre.
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bobones
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby bobones » Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:21 am

The ultralight kit does not have the big round tipped plugs, but they're really only suitable for MTB tyres so £22.60 is the still the starting point here, not £40.

The pointed plugs in the ultralight kit may not fill a 12 mm gash as well as thicker worms, but you just use 2 of them for bigger holes. I still carry some thick worms, a spare tube and a tyre boot but I rarely get such big holes so Dynaplugs will be my first resort.

Anyway, that review is about MTB usage where the pressures are much lower than road. You have said in the past that worms can provide a permanent repair, but they'd need to hold firm at 6 bar if that were to be the case for me, and they don't. Dynaplugs do hold easily at 6 or 7 bar, which makes them far more suitable for road use in my book, and I am looking for a permanent repair for small holes that don't close with sealant alone: anything worse I will attempt to patch or just bin. If Dynaplugs can save me whipping off a tyre to fit a tube or patch from the inside then they are well worth the small premium over worms.

SloppySchleckonds
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby SloppySchleckonds » Fri Dec 21, 2018 15:52 pm

I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles

thecycleclinic
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby thecycleclinic » Fri Dec 21, 2018 23:50 pm

As I said I have only had one big worm blow out and that blew out after I got home. Every other holes that has happened on a tyre on the road and there have been many (probably about 12 this year) have been plugged for the life of the tyre at 80 psi. I'm not the only one either. So either we are using different plugs, inserting them differently or your punctures are bigger than mine. If dynaplugs work for you great keep using them but you me they are an over expensive solution to a problem that has a cheaper solution.

The only occasions I have had to resort to a tube is before I knew about plugs and recently when non IRC tyres which are not as tight have unseated on my velocity wheels when they have lost all air. Plugs don't help there as I can reinflate the tyre. Without a tube. A new set of wheels is the solution.

Zef, I can remove the collar on my setups and it won't leak but ride the wheel without that collar for a while and you will get a leak in the end. I don't think Mavic and I actually offer different advise. Your just interpreting it differently.
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zefs
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby zefs » Sat Dec 22, 2018 07:44 am

I just push the valve from the top and then tighten the nut as much as it's needed by hand without letting the valve move. If it starts moving downwards I think it is too much as the valve seal can be damaged by the rim hole. But yeah worth checking over time to see if the nut gets loose, mine hasn't.

About the worms popping off only used a Genuine Innovations small one and it got me home, 80 psi. A solution could be to remove the worm at home and use another one but with glue (rubber cement) that comes with the kits and let it sit over night, I am guessing this would hold better.

thecycleclinic
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby thecycleclinic » Sat Dec 22, 2018 09:21 am

I stopped using gi worms as I had a few a couple of years ago that pushed out. Bobones has tried glue. I have stopped carrying it myself as I no longer need it.

Bobones has never said what plugs he has tried or the how thick they are. He just claims they don't work. That kind of detail is important.
http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.

zefs
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby zefs » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:24 pm

Yeah they need to be as big as the hole in the tire to work, if you use a mtb worm on a 3mm cut you will ruin the tire. The Weldtide kit I got has mtb ones so I cut them in half (not in length) but haven't tried them yet.

bobones
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby bobones » Sat Dec 22, 2018 16:28 pm

thecycleclinic wrote:Bobones has never said what plugs he has tried or the how thick they are. He just claims they don't work. That kind of detail is important.

That's not true: viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=13015799&p=20432469&hilit=weldtite#p20432469

thecycleclinic
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby thecycleclinic » Sat Dec 22, 2018 18:48 pm

I have tried pointing out not all plugs are equal and those two brands of plugs are not tacky enough in my opinion which maybe why I get more success. I don't know how many times I have repeated this. I don't use genuine innovations or weldite plug kits.
http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.

SloppySchleckonds
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Re: Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

Postby SloppySchleckonds » Mon Dec 24, 2018 15:31 pm

I'd suggest if a tyre isn't self-sealing, wont take standard plugs and isn't a slashed tyre then I probably would ride it as tubeless.
I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles


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