New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

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drlodge
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New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby drlodge » Sat May 02, 2015 19:24 pm

Gave my news wheels a 40 mile blast today. Ugo built them with this spec:
Rim: DT Swiss RR440, asymmetric rear
Hubs & skewers: Hope Mono RS, gunmetal
Spokes front: 20x CX-Ray radial
Spokes rear: 28x Sapim D-light NDS, DT Alpine III DS 3x lacing
Tyres: Schwalbe One tubeless

Cost: hubs and skewers £212; rims and tyres: £171, spokes, build, valves & tape: £130
So just over £450 for the wheels excl tyres

I have to say they look fab, the aesthetics box gets a big tick. The rims give a chunkier look than the Ambrosio Excellights.

It took a while to get the feel of them, going up the hogs back initially I was able to maintain a good pace and found more of a feel of the road surface coming through (like the Vittoria Corsa EVO CX tyres) and the tyres also seem to provide more pneumatic suspension, giving a smooth ride. For most of the ride I was in a group which makes life easier but the pace was fast and I was easily keeping up with them. Faster seemed to be easier and 30 miles in it was time for Crocknorth. Well I smashed my PB good and proper; I did feel fresh but these wheels just seemed so much more efficient than the old ones.

Ugo reckons its probably down to the these tubeless tyres, but the wheels with its asymmetric rear rim design really provide the ideal hoop for the tyres to fit IMO. If you want to go fast period, then deep section carbon wheels are the way. But for everyday use with a mix of flats and hills I think these wheels and tyres are hard to beat, and supports the benefits of going with hand built wheels and freedom to select the precise components.

The bike
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Rear
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Front
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Rear hub
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Front hub and spokes
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Rear asymmetric rim
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WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
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DJ58
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby DJ58 » Wed May 06, 2015 22:46 pm

Dr Lodge, can you tell me what the depth of the brake track is on these rims? What size are the Schwarlbe One tyres you have fitted, how easy or difficult were they to fit and what do they physically size up to and at what pressure? Thanks, nice bike BTW.

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drlodge
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby drlodge » Thu May 07, 2015 08:25 am

Hi DJ,

I'll need to measure up when I get home tonight, and I can't say how easy to fit they are since Ugo fited the tyres having built the wheel (see how good my local wheel builder is - not only does he build the wheel but supplies and fits the valves and rim tape, puts the tyre on and sealant too!). I believe the tyres are relatively easy to fit on these rims but Ugo would be the one to say.

I can say these are 23c tyres, as the RR440 rim is only a bit wider than old style rims so a 25c would have a bit of a bulb shape - they're not as wide as the Archetype. They look a tad wider than the old wheels which is to be expected. Will take a tape measure to them later and report.

I'm running them at 100psi back and 90psi front, I'm just over 12 stone. I ran the old tyres (Pro4 SC) at 110/100 for ages then tried them at 100/90 and they were fine. Reducing the pressure did make them more comfy and didn't affect rolling resistance from what I could tell.
WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
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drlodge
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby drlodge » Thu May 07, 2015 20:06 pm

Brake track is 9mm deep, tyre width is 24.5mm and that's a 23c tyre.
WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
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ugo.santalucia
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby ugo.santalucia » Fri May 08, 2015 05:51 am

Your caliper must be a cheap one DrLodge... my MITUTOYO said they are 23 mm exactly!

The tyres go on with bare hands on these rims, not difficult at all. However, these rims only seal correctly when the liquid is injected... I found wider rims seem to seal even without liquid

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drlodge
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby drlodge » Fri May 08, 2015 08:45 am

ugo.santalucia wrote:Your caliper must be a cheap one DrLodge... my MITUTOYO said they are 23 mm exactly!


Nothing cheap about my caliper! Can't explain the difference, I measured the tyre width and it came up around 24.5-24.8mm. But if its the same measurement on the same wheel/tyre, at least one of us must be wrong! Outer rim width should be 21mm right? I'll take that as a reference and see what my tool says...
WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
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DJ58
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby DJ58 » Fri May 08, 2015 12:10 pm

Thanks Dr and ugo, for the feedback, so would you say that these rims are best suited to 23c tyres and something like the Archetype or Pacenti SL23 are more suited to 25c, or is it down to personal preference frame/fork clearances? Can these rims also be used with clincher type tyres?

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drlodge
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby drlodge » Fri May 08, 2015 12:29 pm

Ugo is better qualified to respond then me...these rims are not particularly wide, sothey are not ideally suited to wider tyres. The main benefit I think is in these tubeless tyres so first decide whether you want to go tubeless or not. I think you can run clinchers with these rims but why would you want to? Archetypes are not tubeless ready but some have converted them with mixed results.

If you want to go wider and stay tubed, then stick with the Archetypes is my view, they're a good rim. If tubeless then the Pacenti may work better for a wider tyre.
WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
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ugo.santalucia
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby ugo.santalucia » Fri May 08, 2015 14:11 pm

DJ58 wrote:Thanks Dr and ugo, for the feedback, so would you say that these rims are best suited to 23c tyres and something like the Archetype or Pacenti SL23 are more suited to 25c, or is it down to personal preference frame/fork clearances? Can these rims also be used with clincher type tyres?


The wider the tyre you want to use, the wider the rim you want to fit them to... I'd say these work best with 23 and the Pacenti work best with 25, although they work well with 23 too

DJ58
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby DJ58 » Fri May 08, 2015 17:16 pm

Dr and ugo, thanks for the clarification regarding these rims.

munkster
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby munkster » Sat May 09, 2015 07:33 am

Ugo are those washers on the hub flanges? If so, have you used those for a specific reason on this build or do you do that as a matter of course?

Nice looking wheels either way!

feisty
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby feisty » Sat May 09, 2015 08:07 am

I am also looking for new wheels. I use 25mm tyres with normal tubes and wish to continue to do so (understand the arguments both ways and don't want to reopen that)

Have narrowed down the rims to either DT Swiss 440 (asymmetric on rear and normal on front) or Velocity A23

Can I check the DT Swiss 440 will work OK with normal tyres rather than tubeless please? (i.e. they aren't aimed just at tubeless tyres and won't be a pain to get on and off if I use normal ones?)

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby ugo.santalucia » Sat May 09, 2015 08:26 am

munkster wrote:Ugo are those washers on the hub flanges? If so, have you used those for a specific reason on this build or do you do that as a matter of course?

Nice looking wheels either way!


They are brass washers I use to compensate the difference in width between the spoke and the hole... as you can see I have not used them on the rear drive side, because the Alpine 3 have a bigger section at the J, hence they are not needed. They tend to play a part in increasing fatigue life and they also protect the flange against possible cracks developing from the hole.
They are not needed in Shimano and DT Swiss hubs, as the holes are pretty tight anyway

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby ugo.santalucia » Sat May 09, 2015 08:28 am

feisty wrote:
Have narrowed down the rims to either DT Swiss 440 (asymmetric on rear and normal on front) or Velocity A23

Can I check the DT Swiss 440 will work OK with normal tyres rather than tubeless please? (i.e. they aren't aimed just at tubeless tyres and won't be a pain to get on and off if I use normal ones?)


Yes, you can use DT 440 with inner tubes.
Same as A 23. The A 23 are often slightly off shape at the junction opposite the valve hole, so no longer a builder's favourite, but for the end user is a non issue and they are very good rims

munkster
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby munkster » Sat May 09, 2015 09:08 am

They are not needed in Shimano and DT Swiss hubs, as the holes are pretty tight anyway


Great thanks. My "default" hub is often/usually Novatec, would you say they'd benefit from washers? They've never struck me as tight. Does this impact spoke length at all? Can't imagine it does but just wondered.

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby ugo.santalucia » Sat May 09, 2015 09:26 am

munkster wrote:
They are not needed in Shimano and DT Swiss hubs, as the holes are pretty tight anyway


Great thanks. My "default" hub is often/usually Novatec, would you say they'd benefit from washers? They've never struck me as tight. Does this impact spoke length at all? Can't imagine it does but just wondered.


I normally use them with Novatec hubs.
For spoke length, I round up instead of rounding down if you use the DT washers. If you use the Sapim ones, then you might want a full extra millimeter, as they are considerably ticker

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SecretSam
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby SecretSam » Thu May 14, 2015 12:36 pm

drlodge wrote:Brake track is 9mm deep, tyre width is 24.5mm and that's a 23c tyre.


Hi there

IIRC you said you had issues with tight clearances on your Rourke - how do you find these new wheels to fit?
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drlodge
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby drlodge » Thu May 14, 2015 21:06 pm

SecretSam wrote:
drlodge wrote:Brake track is 9mm deep, tyre width is 24.5mm and that's a 23c tyre.


Hi there

IIRC you said you had issues with tight clearances on your Rourke - how do you find these new wheels to fit?


The clearance issue I have wit the Rourke is tyre to rear brake caliper arm, just off to the side of vertical there was only a couple of mm clearance. The One tubeless 23c compared to the Pro4 SC 23c...I'd say there's a smidge more clearance with the One tubeless, it appears to be not quite as "high" as the Michelin.
WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
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g00se
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby g00se » Thu May 14, 2015 22:50 pm

ugo.santalucia wrote:
DJ58 wrote:Thanks Dr and ugo, for the feedback, so would you say that these rims are best suited to 23c tyres and something like the Archetype or Pacenti SL23 are more suited to 25c, or is it down to personal preference frame/fork clearances? Can these rims also be used with clincher type tyres?


The wider the tyre you want to use, the wider the rim you want to fit them to... I'd say these work best with 23 and the Pacenti work best with 25, although they work well with 23 too



I have some Ryde Pulse Sprint rims - internal 18mm, external 22mm - do you think these would be better with 23 or 25 tubeless? I've got some 25mm Schwalbe Ones but haven't fitted them yet.

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: New wheels: Tubeless RR440, the best all round wheel?

Postby ugo.santalucia » Fri May 15, 2015 05:20 am

g00se wrote:
ugo.santalucia wrote:
DJ58 wrote:Thanks Dr and ugo, for the feedback, so would you say that these rims are best suited to 23c tyres and something like the Archetype or Pacenti SL23 are more suited to 25c, or is it down to personal preference frame/fork clearances? Can these rims also be used with clincher type tyres?


The wider the tyre you want to use, the wider the rim you want to fit them to... I'd say these work best with 23 and the Pacenti work best with 25, although they work well with 23 too



I have some Ryde Pulse Sprint rims - internal 18mm, external 22mm - do you think these would be better with 23 or 25 tubeless? I've got some 25mm Schwalbe Ones but haven't fitted them yet.


23 for aerodynamics and tyre shape, but 25 if you live in the real world


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