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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,157
    john80 said:

    People starting to come round to the idea that a skills based immigration system is best of all solutions on the basis that you have to have some sort of system. Or are we still advocating the EU racist approach of come on in Polish but you Indians get to the back of the queue. But I am a fully qualified doctor with a young family. Stand aside we have a low skills car washer willing to work in modern slavery. It is like a comedy sketch of stupidity.

    Still not getting the perks for members idea, I see. Most of the Eastern European contractors I work with (and the handful of architectural staff we have employed) have at least one degree if not two. You may want to adjust your assumptions.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 16,735
    Stevo_666 said:

    elbowloh said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    I can't recall anyone on here regarding Barnier highly. People did however point out he was negotiating for the EU so his actions had to be viewed with that in mind.

    Quite a few people seemed to support his/the EU's position during the negotiations, so I can only imagine they thought he was very wise and competent given that he was negotiating for the other side.
    That's not what I remember. What I remember is that people thought the EU was just protecting their own interests as is their right and it was Barnier's job to present that position.
    You're making a different point there. People were supporting the EU on here.
    Had a spare 10 minutes, and did a search for "Barnier" on here. Can't find these posts.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 46,005
    edited 13 May
    rjsterry said:



    You can recognise what Barnier was doing in his role for the EU and vehemently disagree with his views when he is trying to get candidacy for a centre right party in France?

    I

    Barnier was playing politics in his role for the EU. He hasn't only just started. It was one big act of self promotion.
    Well obviously. I'm bemused as to why Stevo thinks there is some change.
    If it's not a change he has hidden it well until recently.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,157
    edited 13 May
    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:



    You can recognise what Barnier was doing in his role for the EU and vehemently disagree with his views when he is trying to get candidacy for a centre right party in France?

    I

    Barnier was playing politics in his role for the EU. He hasn't only just started. It was one big act of self promotion.
    Well obviously. I'm bemused as to why Stevo thinks there is some change.
    If it's not a change he has hidden it well until recently.
    Hidden what? His personal political views haven't really been relevant until now, but it was pretty evident he was using the chief negotiator role to further his own career. The EU isn't particularly pro-immigration. Just FoM between member states.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • jimmyjamsjimmyjams Posts: 380
    john80 said:

    People starting to come round to the idea that a skills based immigration system is best of all solutions on the basis that you have to have some sort of system. Or are we still advocating the EU racist approach of come on in Polish but you Indians get to the back of the queue. But I am a fully qualified doctor with a young family. Stand aside we have a low skills car washer willing to work in modern slavery. It is like a comedy sketch of stupidity.

    Indians aren't anywhere near at the back of the immigration queue now, as you imply.
    About 4-5 years, most immigrants to the UK were, in order of numbers, from Poland, Romania, Ireland, and India.
    Since the numbers coming from the EU have since dropped a lot, it wouldn't surprise to hear that already most immigrants nowadays are from India.
  • jimmyjamsjimmyjams Posts: 380
    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    People starting to come round to the idea that a skills based immigration system is best of all solutions on the basis that you have to have some sort of system. Or are we still advocating the EU racist approach of come on in Polish but you Indians get to the back of the queue. But I am a fully qualified doctor with a young family. Stand aside we have a low skills car washer willing to work in modern slavery. It is like a comedy sketch of stupidity.

    Do you think it's binary?
    It is the EU's problem now as we have left. They can't defend their current racist immigration policy anymore that we could when we were in the EU.
    As far as immigration goes in the EU, to use Germany as the example, since of EU-countries, it has the highest immigration and also a higher net immigration figure than the UK (385,000 against 270,000):
    most immigrants to there in 2019 (latest year for which figures are available) were, in order of numbers, from Romania, Syria, and India - so not at all either EU-restrictive or racist.
  • ProssPross Posts: 28,316
    jimmyjams said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    People starting to come round to the idea that a skills based immigration system is best of all solutions on the basis that you have to have some sort of system. Or are we still advocating the EU racist approach of come on in Polish but you Indians get to the back of the queue. But I am a fully qualified doctor with a young family. Stand aside we have a low skills car washer willing to work in modern slavery. It is like a comedy sketch of stupidity.

    Do you think it's binary?
    It is the EU's problem now as we have left. They can't defend their current racist immigration policy anymore that we could when we were in the EU.
    As far as immigration goes in the EU, to use Germany as the example, since of EU-countries, it has the highest immigration and also a higher net immigration figure than the UK (385,000 against 270,000):
    most immigrants to there in 2019 (latest year for which figures are available) were, in order of numbers, from Romania, Syria, and India - so not at all either EU-restrictive or racist.
    You're relatively new here so need to learn that facts and figures have no part to play in a debate on this forum. You need to go on instinct, gut feel and 'just knowing' that your argument is true then say it often and loudly until everyone agreesd with you.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 16,735
    To consider the EU freedom of movement to be inherently racist, you'd need to also consider that allowing Scottish people to work in England with fewer restrictions than those from outside the UK is equally so.
  • john80john80 Posts: 2,184
    rjsterry said:

    john80 said:

    People starting to come round to the idea that a skills based immigration system is best of all solutions on the basis that you have to have some sort of system. Or are we still advocating the EU racist approach of come on in Polish but you Indians get to the back of the queue. But I am a fully qualified doctor with a young family. Stand aside we have a low skills car washer willing to work in modern slavery. It is like a comedy sketch of stupidity.

    Still not getting the perks for members idea, I see. Most of the Eastern European contractors I work with (and the handful of architectural staff we have employed) have at least one degree if not two. You may want to adjust your assumptions.
    They would be fine to come and work here then wouldn't they. It is more this kind of thing that is a problem of the old EU system.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-56988881
  • john80john80 Posts: 2,184

    To consider the EU freedom of movement to be inherently racist, you'd need to also consider that allowing Scottish people to work in England with fewer restrictions than those from outside the UK is equally so.

    When the EU gets rid of national democracies and forces them all into one parliament a bit like Westminster say I will take your point. Until then your next logical step is counties in England.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 16,735
    john80 said:

    To consider the EU freedom of movement to be inherently racist, you'd need to also consider that allowing Scottish people to work in England with fewer restrictions than those from outside the UK is equally so.

    When the EU gets rid of national democracies and forces them all into one parliament a bit like Westminster say I will take your point. Until then your next logical step is counties in England.
    I'm not saying they are the same type of legislative body, but there is free movement within those boundaries.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,157
    john80 said:

    rjsterry said:

    john80 said:

    People starting to come round to the idea that a skills based immigration system is best of all solutions on the basis that you have to have some sort of system. Or are we still advocating the EU racist approach of come on in Polish but you Indians get to the back of the queue. But I am a fully qualified doctor with a young family. Stand aside we have a low skills car washer willing to work in modern slavery. It is like a comedy sketch of stupidity.

    Still not getting the perks for members idea, I see. Most of the Eastern European contractors I work with (and the handful of architectural staff we have employed) have at least one degree if not two. You may want to adjust your assumptions.
    They would be fine to come and work here then wouldn't they. It is more this kind of thing that is a problem of the old EU system.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-56988881
    Well no, at a new graduate level, they would struggle with the salary thresholds. Given people are occasionally smuggling trucks full of non-EU migrants into the country, I'm unconvinced that leaving the EU is likely to sweep this problem away.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • ProssPross Posts: 28,316
    john80 said:

    rjsterry said:

    john80 said:

    People starting to come round to the idea that a skills based immigration system is best of all solutions on the basis that you have to have some sort of system. Or are we still advocating the EU racist approach of come on in Polish but you Indians get to the back of the queue. But I am a fully qualified doctor with a young family. Stand aside we have a low skills car washer willing to work in modern slavery. It is like a comedy sketch of stupidity.

    Still not getting the perks for members idea, I see. Most of the Eastern European contractors I work with (and the handful of architectural staff we have employed) have at least one degree if not two. You may want to adjust your assumptions.
    They would be fine to come and work here then wouldn't they. It is more this kind of thing that is a problem of the old EU system.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-56988881
    So who is filling the care home vacancies and making sure the fruit and crops get harvested? The reason 'unskilled' EU workers were getting jobs was because they were prepared to do things their British equivalents turn their noses up at.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,980 Lives Here
    John genuinely believes in autarky, and thinks the plucky young working class Brit is just outpriced by grubby foreigners, and so those fruit pickers will just have to be paid a lot more to entice the brit.
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 7,035
    edited 13 May

    John genuinely believes in autarky, and thinks the plucky young working class Brit is just outpriced by grubby foreigners, and so those fruit pickers will just have to be paid a lot more to entice the brit.


    Re autarky, as a historian, you might enjoy this book - it suggests that even in remote high Alpine valleys five hundred years ago there was considerable migration through the seasons.
  • john80john80 Posts: 2,184
    Pross said:

    john80 said:

    rjsterry said:

    john80 said:

    People starting to come round to the idea that a skills based immigration system is best of all solutions on the basis that you have to have some sort of system. Or are we still advocating the EU racist approach of come on in Polish but you Indians get to the back of the queue. But I am a fully qualified doctor with a young family. Stand aside we have a low skills car washer willing to work in modern slavery. It is like a comedy sketch of stupidity.

    Still not getting the perks for members idea, I see. Most of the Eastern European contractors I work with (and the handful of architectural staff we have employed) have at least one degree if not two. You may want to adjust your assumptions.
    They would be fine to come and work here then wouldn't they. It is more this kind of thing that is a problem of the old EU system.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-56988881
    So who is filling the care home vacancies and making sure the fruit and crops get harvested? The reason 'unskilled' EU workers were getting jobs was because they were prepared to do things their British equivalents turn their noses up at.
    Sometimes a shortage of labour might make businesses pay more. I am sure the care worker would be glad of the raise. As I have said many times make benefits easier to come on and off and there will be no shortage of fruit pickers looking for short term work. The answer is not always more labour from abroad. Sometimes it is the problem unless you are partial to a bit of modern slavery or cheap services at the expense of others.
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,486
    The result for the hospitality industry. In the short to medium term anyway. Will be paying a higher rate, to less qualified/experienced people and still being unable to recruit enough people to fill vacancies


    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • john80john80 Posts: 2,184

    John genuinely believes in autarky, and thinks the plucky young working class Brit is just outpriced by grubby foreigners, and so those fruit pickers will just have to be paid a lot more to entice the brit.

    Would you honestly when you are just scrapping by in poverty take a seasonal job for not a lot of extra cash and face the risk of being down the local food bank whilst the DSS sort out your money when the next seasonal contract does not appear. This assumes you can work the long hours in the field as you don't have dependents. I wonder if you have any grasp of what living on the breadline would be like when you are spouting your left agenda.
  • ProssPross Posts: 28,316
    john80 said:

    Pross said:

    john80 said:

    rjsterry said:

    john80 said:

    People starting to come round to the idea that a skills based immigration system is best of all solutions on the basis that you have to have some sort of system. Or are we still advocating the EU racist approach of come on in Polish but you Indians get to the back of the queue. But I am a fully qualified doctor with a young family. Stand aside we have a low skills car washer willing to work in modern slavery. It is like a comedy sketch of stupidity.

    Still not getting the perks for members idea, I see. Most of the Eastern European contractors I work with (and the handful of architectural staff we have employed) have at least one degree if not two. You may want to adjust your assumptions.
    They would be fine to come and work here then wouldn't they. It is more this kind of thing that is a problem of the old EU system.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-56988881
    So who is filling the care home vacancies and making sure the fruit and crops get harvested? The reason 'unskilled' EU workers were getting jobs was because they were prepared to do things their British equivalents turn their noses up at.
    Sometimes a shortage of labour might make businesses pay more. I am sure the care worker would be glad of the raise. As I have said many times make benefits easier to come on and off and there will be no shortage of fruit pickers looking for short term work. The answer is not always more labour from abroad. Sometimes it is the problem unless you are partial to a bit of modern slavery or cheap services at the expense of others.
    There isn't the money there. I posted recently about this, my wife manages care provision and they used to pay well above minimum wage but over the years the Councils have had their money cut so won't pay enough for care provision.

    We also saw last year that despite the amount of people out of work due to the pandemic they couldn't get enough fruit pickers within the UK plus you would no doubt complain about poor northerners having to pay a greater percentage of their meagre salaries on food as a result of increased costs of production.

    Modern slavery is a relatively small scale problem associated with organised crime and I suspect is linked to people smuggling in many cases.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,980 Lives Here
    john80 said:

    John genuinely believes in autarky, and thinks the plucky young working class Brit is just outpriced by grubby foreigners, and so those fruit pickers will just have to be paid a lot more to entice the brit.

    Would you honestly when you are just scrapping by in poverty take a seasonal job for not a lot of extra cash and face the risk of being down the local food bank whilst the DSS sort out your money when the next seasonal contract does not appear. This assumes you can work the long hours in the field as you don't have dependents. I wonder if you have any grasp of what living on the breadline would be like when you are spouting your left agenda.
    I’m not wrong that that’s what you think though, right?
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 46,005
    Looks like Mr. Goo is back :)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,486




    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 13,977





    many thanks for referencing who he is.

    Do we know what he is referring to does the story just exist in his own mind?

    It would be an amazing U-turn as we were repeatedly reassured that all would be OK becuase the German car makers would lean on Merkel to make a good deal as we were such an important market for them.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 22,667
    edited 14 May
    I've just ordered something from the North Face website (which I don't recommend unless the price is seriously good) and I noticed that they're still not shipping to NI

    (I wonder if there is an IE site they can use?)

    Edit - nope. Someone needs to tell businesses that NI is still in the single market...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,157
    Stevo_666 said:

    Looks like Mr. Goo is back :)

    He's alive!
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 4,469
    ddraver said:

    I've just ordered something from the North Face website (which I don't recommend unless the price is seriously good) and I noticed that they're still not shipping to NI

    (I wonder if there is an IE site they can use?)

    Edit - nope. Someone needs to tell businesses that NI is still in the single market...

    I really don’t get this but I too have seen it on a couple of sites.

    Forget the rights and wrongs of NI and where any border sits. My understanding was as members of the single market, Eu purchasing would be fine. This was the trade off with a Sea border.

    They really seem to have ended up with the worst of both worlds from a customs perspective. A border with GB and Eu companies not shipping there.

    FWIW, I have ordered two items from Europe with no bother at all. One over and one under the £135 threshold.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 46,005
    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Looks like Mr. Goo is back :)

    He's alive!
    Good as the last thread title was, I kinda missed the regular changes which were good fun.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,157
    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Looks like Mr. Goo is back :)

    He's alive!
    Good as the last thread title was, I kinda missed the regular changes which were good fun.
    Indeed.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 22,667
    edited 14 May
    morstar said:

    ddraver said:

    I've just ordered something from the North Face website (which I don't recommend unless the price is seriously good) and I noticed that they're still not shipping to NI

    (I wonder if there is an IE site they can use?)

    Edit - nope. Someone needs to tell businesses that NI is still in the single market...

    I really don’t get this but I too have seen it on a couple of sites.

    Forget the rights and wrongs of NI and where any border sits. My understanding was as members of the single market, Eu purchasing would be fine. This was the trade off with a Sea border.

    They really seem to have ended up with the worst of both worlds from a customs perspective. A border with GB and Eu companies not shipping there.

    FWIW, I have ordered two items from Europe with no bother at all. One over and one under the £135 threshold.
    I guess neither the NI Assembly or the UK Government like pointing out that being in the single market is...you know...good!

    But yeah I explain it to businesses quite a lot.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,486
    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
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