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  • morstarmorstar Posts: 4,492
    This is the frustrating side of modern capitalism.

    The product is secondary to perceived value.

    The fans really don’t matter if the balance sheet can look better.

    It’s the same in many PE backed businesses. Making the numbers look right is the objective and the core business model is secondary.

    It’s where the NFL is fundamentally different. They look at the product and the customers collectively and work out how they improve the product so that the owners make more money. Win win.

    It’s capitalism maximising profits through delivering a great product. Football is leveraging as much as you can out of a ponzi business model with no controls in place.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 56,018 Lives Here
    edited 19 April
    Plenty of Americans think the NFL is broken too, tbh.

    I think the main thing is the pandemic has shown them that it's all about TV, and that crowds aren't all that.

  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 6,239
    The ESL though won't have the things that NFL / NBA do though that make it competitive - salary caps and the draft.
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 56,018 Lives Here
    edited 19 April
    elbowloh said:

    The ESL though won't have the things that NFL / NBA do though that make it competitive - salary caps and the draft.

    Yeah. It's also not *that* competitive... Some teams always find a way to pay more. I think the big leveller in that sport is the lack of games means random events have a bigger impact on outcomes - over a football season they play enough that they tend to even out.
  • shirley_bassoshirley_basso Posts: 4,445

  • JezyboyJezyboy Posts: 822

    elbowloh said:

    The ESL though won't have the things that NFL / NBA do though that make it competitive - salary caps and the draft.

    Yeah. It's also not *that* competitive... Some teams always find a way to pay more. I think the big leveller in that sport is the lack of games means random events have a bigger impact on outcomes - over a football season they play enough that they tend to even out.
    I think the nfl set up is also helped by the importance of a single position (qb) and having a system where poorly performing teams get first dibs on the young players coming through...

    Although the 198 picks that missed Tom Brady show that it's not that clear cut!
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 56,018 Lives Here
    Yeah I just want to make the point the NFL is not some competitive utopia, though I’m not sure anyone disagrees.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 56,018 Lives Here
    Do think the authorities should use the opportunity to change the Champions league and bin off the interminable group stage.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 16,799

    I'm a Northampton Town fan. We are currently dicing with relegation to League Two. It wasn't that long ago that we were playing Man City in that league. It now seems that Manchester City and others are happy to deny clubs like Northampton the opportunity to do what they did and become a giant of the Premier League or European football.

    It stinks

    I feel for you - it was surely only a matter of time before my Aldershot were playing Northampton in front of literally hundreds of people in the San Siro in the Champions League final. That dream dies here.
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 6,239

    Do think the authorities should use the opportunity to change the Champions league and bin off the interminable group stage.

    Have you seen the agreed "Swiss" proposal?

    Each team plays 10 games rather than six before the knock out rounds.
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 56,018 Lives Here
    Because that is definitely about the spectacle and not the money
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 4,492

    Yeah I just want to make the point the NFL is not some competitive utopia, though I’m not sure anyone disagrees.

    I wasn’t trying to make out it’s a utopia but sport is about the best rising the top in fair competition.
    The NFL does level the playing field enormously and quality still shines through. Exactly what you want imho.
    Pats were not a high spending team when they kept winning. Brady took his winning ability south with him.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 13,256
    I can't understand a system where kids must play for certain clubs. It's like football from years ago where players were owned.
  • verylonglegsverylonglegs Posts: 3,613
    UEFA's reshaped champions league format was due to be announced and signed off today, apparently there were still last minute wrangles over revenue shares so the tops clubs hit the nuclear button last night. As least that is what I've read.

    I have no preference how this ends, to me the CL has been a dogs dinner for a while now, dead rubbers too early in the campaign, top four entrants of the select nations, some play qualifiers some don't and most bizarrely for me the third place group teams were parachuted into the Europa Cup. I don't see how it can be resolved to the point where I want to watch it again but will enjoy the bunfight as I have a cynicism towards all parties involved.

    Also from the point of the government talking about this now, well they've been remarkably quiet whilst all these clubs were taken over, some of them leading to ruin like Portsmouth and suddenly now they are concerned? Plus after all that has needed sorting in the last year or so they can find the resources to get worked up about who Arsenal are playing on Wednesday night in October.
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 6,239
    Well, Prince William has come out against it now.

    Nail in the coffin
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  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 13,983
    Like my long legged friend I am intrigued how Boris will stop Man Utd playing in a competition of their choosing, that is assuming it is not his usual playbook of lying in front of a bulldozer or being buried in a ditch.

    Then we have Spirit of Shankly pointing out it is “our” club, why does nobody point out that they are 100% wrong and it ceased to be their club when they sold their shares to the yanks.

    Chelsea - is it really that difficult to imagine a time when their current owner is sleeping with the fishes and they return to the middle of the table.

    Man City - the ultimate Johnny come lately who will be lucky to be playing Macclesfield if any future owners of Abu Dhabi decide subsidising a football club on another continent is not the best use of resources.

    Spurs - last won the league in 1961 so showing the weakness of the plan

    Man Utd - the true culprit as without them, Real and Barca it could not happen.

    Kudos to Bayern, Dortmund and PSG who must have had serious carrots dangled at them
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 6,239
    Klopp has been asked about it, difficult for him as obviously FSG are his employers.

    He has said he was against the previous iteration and hasn't changed his mind. Also says he likes the fact that West Ham could be in the CL next season.
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  • ddraverddraver Posts: 22,704
    Klopp could take over the world if he wanted....
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • JezyboyJezyboy Posts: 822
    I imagine Boris involvement will stretch as far as a meeting with some chaps from the FA and then trying to take credit for any successes that the FA have.

    Ultimately, I struggle to see how the government can realistically impact on this.

    Would argue the presence of Spurs in the big 6 suggests it's really a big 5 (possibly even just a big 4 given how poor Arsenal have been of late).

  • skwarczekskwarczek Posts: 71
    Something very interesting I read earlier about this. Yes, its from the Daily Fail, but still an interesting read

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9486681/European-Super-League-clubs-WIN-court-case-brought-UEFA-FIFA-says-legal-expert.html
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 16,799
    The reaction on the radio seems to have been:
    "its a disgrace, a scandal, they've betrayed us etc etc."
    "If it happens will you watch your team in it?"
    "Yes."
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 6,239

    The reaction on the radio seems to have been:
    "its a disgrace, a scandal, they've betrayed us etc etc."
    "If it happens will you watch your team in it?"
    "Yes."

    That may be in the radio, but they only ever get the idiots on there. From what I've seen, many fan groups are for a boycott
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  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 16,799
    Thinking of complaining about the level of coverage.
  • seanoconnseanoconn Posts: 7,895
    skwarczek said:

    Something very interesting I read earlier about this. Yes, its from the Daily Fail, but still an interesting read

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9486681/European-Super-League-clubs-WIN-court-case-brought-UEFA-FIFA-says-legal-expert.html

    Yep, I suppose it would be naive to imagine the big six lawyers hadn’t covered every possible outcome before moving forward.
    Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 16,799
    edited 20 April
    Someone should ask the politicians who say it's unthinkable that the same teams will compete each year what they think about the boat race.
  • JimD666JimD666 Posts: 124
    I can't help but wonder whether the complaining from other Club chairman/owners is more about not being included than any other reason.
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 8,818
    edited 20 April
    elbowloh said:

    The reaction on the radio seems to have been:
    "its a disgrace, a scandal, they've betrayed us etc etc."
    "If it happens will you watch your team in it?"
    "Yes."

    That may be in the radio, but they only ever get the idiots on there. From what I've seen, many fan groups are for a boycott

    If it's a good match, I'll watch anything, I have to be honest.

    I'm a United supporter - I don't have an issue with this replacing the CL (damp squib which needed a shake-up - Europa is dire too, let's be honest, if Granada are reaching the QFs), but I do have an issue if it means the clubs* involved can no longer play in domestic competition (losing that financial trickle down the pyramid) or their players are prevented from playing for their country.

    *they're not clubs anymore, haven't been for a while. I suspect this aspect is part of the reason Bayern and Dortmund aren't yet involved - clubs over there are still run very much as they used to be over here.
    Ben

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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 56,018 Lives Here
    edited 20 April
    I do sometimes wonder what fans expect. This to me seems like the logical end point of where the sport was going.

    It became incredibly lucrative in the '10's and fans were happy to take the money from investors to spend on new superstars, but now they're unhappy when the investors make moves to protect their investments.

    These will be the same man city fans who welcomed their super rich owners etc.

    They're not paying to have the worlds best players play for your team for some kind of charity event aimed at your local town....
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 16,799

    Someone should ask the politicians who say it's unthinkable that the same teams will compete each year what they think about the boat race.

    I've also got some information about first class cricket in England that will blow your mind.
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