Zone 6: the hill climb thread
ugo.santalucia
Posts: 25,572
I am training for the Hill climb season, so I tend to do one or two short climbs full on most of the times I go out. I have worked out an FTP of around 250 using the 2 x 8 minute method, because I don't have access to 20 uninterrupted minutes.
This gives me a zone 6 around 300-375 Watt. I was reading coaches put a limit of 3 minutes in zone 6, but I routinely do 4 and I've done more than 5 on one occasion... does it mean my FTP setting is wrong or am I just going way too hard?
This gives me a zone 6 around 300-375 Watt. I was reading coaches put a limit of 3 minutes in zone 6, but I routinely do 4 and I've done more than 5 on one occasion... does it mean my FTP setting is wrong or am I just going way too hard?
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Or, your FTP is too low. You'd need to be confident that it is correct. That said, I don't get too precise about mine as it is only a spot test at a moment of time. I dare say my FTP would be different on each of 3 consecutive days if I tried it.
I am not sure. You have no chance.
Taking my very nothing special power stats from the last 6 weeks...
1min 474W
5min 336W
8min 320W
10min 310W
15min 295W
20min 290W
30min 281W
45min 260W
60min 248W (part of a Zwift workout with 40min workout followed by easy recovery, so useless guide to a 60min effort)
I'm currently working on an estimate of ~275W (95% of best 20mins), so my zone6 is 331-412W, but it's from 30th March and I don't think I've tried an all out 20min effort since... So I wouldn't be suprised if it's lower now.
Given I'm still picking up the pieces after mild COVID-19 in late March which left me wrecked for at least 9 weeks, which wrote off my Jan/Feb gains, I was surprised to do 333W up a climb for ~5min15secs last Monday https://www.strava.com/activities/3655622726/analysis/4493/4807
You have a turbo these days IIRC, ideal place to do longer intervals if outside isn't practical. https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/build-me-up/week-1-pre-training-plan/ ERG workout should give you an idea if youyr zones are in the right ballpark.
2020 Voodoo Marasa
2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
2016 Voodoo Wazoo
My number are similar to yours for the short efforts, then they drop
1 min 471
5 min 329
8 min 280
anything beyond 8 minutes is not "my best"... maybe I am just a good "anaerobic bod"
Unless you know all your comp hills are sub 8mins, you better get extending that interval training duration ASAP, while I need to get a lot more restrained with the carb snacks to lose ~3Kg+ I've gained since Covid to have any hope of managing a 4W/Kg 20min effort.
2020 Voodoo Marasa
2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
2016 Voodoo Wazoo
On the topic of zone 6 (which I would take to be Friel's zone 5b/c), 300-375w is a massive spread really? I never used FTP or total time in zone to determine interval power for short stuff. I usually went with 90% of my best peak power for the duration when I used to do those types of intervals, with appropriate recovery depending how long the duration was. I would need quite a bit of recovery for 3 min intervals (about 4x the interval length), not as much for 6 min intervals (about the same as the interval length). The amount of intervals I would do was based on overall fitness -- so 5-6 intervals if quite fit, 3-4 if not quite top level fit -- regardless of interval duration.
Obviously my power for 6 minutes would be quite a bit lower than for intervals of 3 minutes, where 6 min would be maybe 10% over FTP and 3 min intervals nearer to 30% over FTP. My FTP at my best was set to 250w so that would be ~275w for 6 min and ~325w for 3 min. But if you're doing them all at well over 300w then it sounds like you just have a lot of anaerobic capacity, whereas I don't. And probably also your FTP is too low. Maybe more testing of the W'/Monod variety would reveal a more accurate power curve than the 8 min FTP test for you.
Not sure about the < 3 mins thing though, that's around VO2 max (120% FTP roughly) which I had always heard was what you could sustain for the 3-5 minutes-ish (here is a link to a paper which found 4 mins plus or minus 30-40s under lab conditions https://www.researchgate.net/publication/216230264_Reproducibility_of_Cycling_Time_to_Exhaustion_at_VO2_Max_in_Competitive_Cyclists ). You don't normally see prescribed intervals longer than 3 mins though, so perhaps that's what the coaches were meaning in that context, maybe?
That and your FTP could be set a bit low.
https://www.strava.com/activities/3702169115
How often have you done "all out" 20min intervals since 23rd March?
How often have you done 5-8min intervals since 23rd March and have your power figures for those intervals improved?
Do you use a heart rate monitor and have any idea of your Lactate Threshold Heart Rate?
If you've not been doing any sort of structured training as regarding FTP improving, you've got heck of a better chance than I of doing 4W/Kg+ for 20mins.
2020 Voodoo Marasa
2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
2016 Voodoo Wazoo
On the other hand, power on the shorter efforts has gone up significantly. Given the right "bump" I might be able to finally do one minute at 500W soon, in March 400 W for a minute was as much as I could do... figure for a 4 minute effort (from climbing Edge hill) have gone up about 25 Watts in 3-4 months from around 320 to 347W, in hill climbing money it's more because I've also lost 5-6 kg.
No HR monitor, I think it slows down people in the high zones as they get scared of hitting big numbers...
My best 20 minutes is about 4.2 w/kg (@ 71kg), but over 1 minute it's only 433 (6.1 w/kg). On that Coggan power curve thing a "par" 1 minute power for my FTP should be more like 570-580 watts (8.2ish), which is completely unimaginable. Sprints are even worse! Like, off-the-bottom-of -the-chart worse...
My 5 minutes is alright cos I guess that is where the balance starts to get more aerobic.
It's also the reason I want to do hill climbs, over other forms of racing... I could be good at it (in my age group), whereas my 10 mile TT times are depressing, even considering I don't use any aero help. I think today's 26:30 is probably my fastest 10 miles ever.... go figure
https://www.strava.com/activities/1490817528
I should do better now
Anyway, 350 Watt (5.2W/kg), 3:36 minutes, more or less what I expected, 37th out of 2400 in my age category on Strava. If I was to qualify for the National, I might do a 3:15 or thereabout... nothing that would bother the fast guys.
https://www.strava.com/activities/3744964253
Be interested to see what your FTP is because I'm surprised it's only 240-250 as you suggest.
If you were to combine your power profile and mine you would have one quite well rounded rider!
I’m sure if I could manage 350+ for 6mins I’d be looking at an ftp nearer 300w.
Voodoo Bizango - 2014 - Dead - Hit by a car
Vitus Sentier VRS - 2017
https://www.strava.com/segments/2322472 (hits ~33%)
Wish me luck, I've got a few days up there (seeing family) coming up very soon!
2020 Voodoo Marasa
2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
2016 Voodoo Wazoo
I did 512 W for 47 seconds, so maybe all I needed was 13 seconds "more hill"
However if you are fresh and doing a single effort, it is possible to do a 4 minute Zone 6 as I see track cyclists do this.
That said, I can do 1 minute at 200% FTP, make of that what you want...
https://www.strava.com/activities/3920172933