Hookless rims on a new road bike - attraction or deal killer?

I'm considering replacing my current bike with a new one (Giant TCR Advanced Pro, as it happens, but my question is not about that). My current sets of wheels are tubeless-ready, but hookless rims give me no choice - tubeless only. So, on a road bike, should I commit myself fully to tubeless?
Practical answers please, from those who have experience - I've read all the web stuff from Enve etc, but I'd like to hear from those of you with actual experience and nothing to sell...
Many thanks
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Comments

  • super_davo
    super_davo Posts: 1,116
    Hookless rims make sense if you're fully committed to tubeless - lighter rims and a flush, more aero fit.
    With tubeless, you're not going to be changing your tyres very often, so the inability to run non tubeless won't be as big a drawback as you might think (basically it turns into fit then leave till they wear out).
    As long as you're comfortable with the range and price of tubeless tyres - and the choice is improving on that front all the time - then no reason not to.
    Also - 2021 TCRs look lush.
  • small_steps
    small_steps Posts: 15
    Many thanks to both of you. I'm feeling reassured, and curious about how much better the ride might be.
  • joe_totale-2
    joe_totale-2 Posts: 1,333
    Just be aware that GP 5000 TL's are not made for hookless rims, it's specifically stated on the sidewall. Apparently it's due to their very large bead which is to big for the hookless rims to hold in place.
    I'm sure though that the tyres the bike come with will be good anyway so not a worry in the short term.

    The max tyre pressures of the rims will be lower than rims with hooks on so just be aware of it.


  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,174
    Hookless rims? Why? Don't bother, sounds like a hassle you can live without
    left the forum March 2023
  • small_steps
    small_steps Posts: 15
    The "why" is easy - because they are specced on the bike I am considering. Hence my question to the forum.
    Oxoman, you are right about being fitted with Gavia tyres, and I appreciate the feedback. Still, a shame about Contis - I have a semi-religious faith in them after using only 4000s for a very long time.
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,467
    Well, I wouldn't want those wheels, but it's up to you and what you're after really.

    The advantages of tubeless are 1) being able to run lower pressures without pinch flats, and 2) fewer punctures, in exchange for having to deal with the mounting and sealant complications.

    They don't roll any better than good clinchers with latex tubes, and they're not lighter once set up, that's all marketing.

    Do you get a lot of punctures on clinchers? I don't, but that depends on a lot of things. Do you want to run fat tyres at lower pressures? Again, not for me - but if you have "comfort" issues maybe it's important for you. They won't be faster, other than on cobbles or very bad roads.

    The new Giant TCR looks very nice in all other respects though - I'd ask the dealer to swap the wheels and walk away if they wouldn't or couldn't. Or I might try to flog the wheels on ebay after purchase.

    I suspect the rationale behind beadless rims is the same as for dropped seatstays on aero bikes - they are cheaper to make, but can be sold for more with the aid of marketing (dropped seatstays are cheaper because you can use the same rear triangle for more than one frame size). Same as with the old press-fit BB, it's a manufacturing cost saving that (because it's new) can be marketed as an advantage using the marketing magic of total BS.



  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    One a hookless rim, if you hit something nasty and tear the tyre, you won't be able to boot it and put a tube in. You'll be stranded, trying to get the tyre to seal again.

    At least that's my understanding; I run clinchers with tubes so am absolutely no authority on this.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
    Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/143173475@N05/
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,719
    oxoman said:

    I run both and have done for a few years and have never had an issue reseating a tubeless tyre. I've hit enough potholes over the years and never bent a rim yet.

    But can you put a tube in on a hookless rim - if not what do you do if you split the tyre ?
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • small_steps
    small_steps Posts: 15
    Thanks for the specific question, Roger. That is what I am trying to understand - it is making an one-way bet on tubeless because of the hookless rim, that I am struggling to decide.
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    oxoman said:

    If the tyre splits I've got tyre boots / patches and I always carry a Co2 inflator plus gloves and valve core remover. I only carry spare tube if doing long or multi day rides and have normally ended up giving them to someone else. Only time I've had a sidewall failure was on my mtb running tubes and nothing would have repaired that hole, long run back to car. Not had a tubeless flat other than one to see how effective tyreworms are and how to use. If a big split you can fit multiple worms, which come in a few different sizes. Having replaced a few tubeless tyres I've never had an issue reseating them using a track pump or Co2.

    Ah so you can run an inner tube on a hookless rim?
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
    Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/143173475@N05/
  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,695
    You can run tubes with a hookless rim, but you'll want to use a tubeless tyre because of the stronger/less stretchable bead. To get home after a puncture, it's fine.
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,467
    I think the hookless design is maybe new for "this" year? (2021).
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,174
    I am trying to understand the rationale for a hookless rim... does it save 10-20 grams or so? Is that the reason?
    left the forum March 2023
  • joe_totale-2
    joe_totale-2 Posts: 1,333

    I am trying to understand the rationale for a hookless rim... does it save 10-20 grams or so? Is that the reason?

    I think it saves a bit more weight than that. The main reason though is because it's easier and cheaper to manufacture, especially when it comes to carbon rims.

    I'd be amazed though if the consumer will see any of this cost saving...
  • joe_totale-2
    joe_totale-2 Posts: 1,333

    I am trying to understand the rationale for a hookless rim... does it save 10-20 grams or so? Is that the reason?

    I think it saves a bit more weight than that. The main reason though is because it's easier and cheaper to manufacture, especially when it comes to carbon rims.

    I'd be amazed though if the consumer will see any of this cost saving...
    I stand corrected, part of the reason the new Zipp 303's are cheaper is due to their use of hookless rims:

    https://www.bikeradar.com/news/zipp-303-firecrest-disc-2021/
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,467
    Which doesn't mean that other manufacturers won't try to charge more for hookless, because it's a "feature".. The ENVE website has a whole bunch of stuff about supposed aero benefits because the bead supposedly pushes the sidewall in a bit, thus creating a less optimal tyre/rim airflow tranistion.. I can't believe that this is detectably signifciant..

    In other news, you can buy an anti-5G USB stick for £340..
  • iso2000
    iso2000 Posts: 27
    If you go ahead with buying the Giant get one of these whilst in the shop:
    https://giant-bicycles.com/gb/tubeless-sealant-refill---check-syringe

    It makes checking and refilling sealant a breeze.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,174
    OK< I accept that it's easier to make a hookless carbon rim... are there alloy hookless rims? 'Cause obviously for an extruded rim, hook or not makes no difference in terms of manufacturing...
    left the forum March 2023
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,467
    oxoman said:

    Neeb, honestly it's not worth worrying about. The Giant wheels are very good as are the gavia tyres. My only concern over carbon wheels is if I was to go rim braked. Plenty of decent tubeless tyres available on the market. Give it a while and most bikes will be tubeless. Think how quick roadbikes and discs became entrenched. Cars and motorbikes all used to have innertubes, just technology and innovation cascading down. I'm more than happy with tubeless but I won't go electronic shifting.


    It completely depends on where you are coming from and what your needs for wheels and tyres are. Speak for yourself about discs becoming "entrenched", I have no need for them, although I do have electronic gears on one bike so we are obviously coming from different perspectives.. ;)

    There are absolutely no concerns with rim braking on the latest generation of high quality carbon rims.

    Tubeless works well for certain applications but there's no way it would make sense for me - I'm running 23mm still on my most commonly used bikes and get punctures maybe 4 or 5 times a year. I also like swapping tyres around.

    The analogies with disc brakes and with cars and motorbikes are appropriate - both disc brakes and tubless tyres are fine for those applications, but they are definitely suboptimal for many road bike applications. So it would certainly be worth worrying about if most wheels became tubeless! Just as with disc brakes - five or ten years ago the idea of them becoming ubiquitous was a bit of a joke (it was obvious then, as it is now, that they are suboptimal in many road situations), but it happened because it was pushed hard enough by the marketing people.
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,467
    oxoman said:

    Neeb, not sure why you get that many P,s its a a few yrs and thousands of mikes since my last roadbike one. Not sure my body would cope with 23,s though.

    More like 3 a year now I think about it.. so it's hardly a problem... :D Certainly much less hassle than dealing with sealant etc.

    Tyres marked 23mm are about 25mm when mounted on modern rims. At 95/90 psi they are perfectly comfortable on all but the most abysmal of road surfaces. 25mm tyres are slower for me (both actually and subjectively). I almost lost the will to cycle when I tried wider tyres, felt sluggish, seemed to take all the joy out of it.

    I do run a 25 on the back on my tubular setup, but they measure about 24mm installed.

    No-one mentions rider weight when talking about optimal tyre width and braking solutions, but it's fundamental. If 23mm is the sweetspot for me at 64kg it's likely that something significantly wider will be optimal for someone weighing 50% more. Just as with clothing, I feel that in this mega-sized world my needs are being increasingly neglected, so I have to stand up for them. ;) When I was 20 yo I was a size medium in T-shirts, now even the small size is usually too big!

  • thecycleclinic
    thecycleclinic Posts: 395
    edited May 2020
    I am speaking now as a tyre importer never use an IRC road tyre on a hookless rim.

    Rim manufacturers claim many things they are not making the tyre though. Never use a road width tyre even a tubeless one on a hookless rim. None of the main tyre manufacturers recommends there road tyres on hookless rims. None.

    For gravel and mtb tyres run at low pressures then hookles is fine.

    One of the other problems is rim width.
    Hookless rims tend to be wider and 21mm or 22mm is too wide for a 28mm tyre. Those etrto standards exist for a reason. You can push the boundaries a bit safely but some manufacturers take the piss by claiming a 22mm internal width rim is fine with a 25mm tyre. Of course stretched tyre do blow off. What do i know though...

    Enve mentioned above say IRC tyres are fine with hookless rims. One customer who phoned up asking i recommend them for hookless rims got a firm reply. I wont sell an IRC for use with an enve rims. What enve recommend is up to them but it should not be believed. IRC state explicitly state and I firmly agree, none of there road tyres or cx tyres should be used with hookless rims. Needless to say I did not get a sale. I'm o.k with that.

    Rim manufacturers need to work with tyre manufacturers
    Some dont though.

    Hunt for example tried blaming continental for there tyres blowing off there limitless rims suggesting there were problems with there beads. Of course the real reason is the 22.5mm internal width. The rim damage issue lead hunt to making the rim narrower externally so it less expose to damage. Obviously they have never looked at the rims of boy racers with stretched tyres on them. That served look is not going to end well on a bicycle wheel.

    Tyre manufacturer make there products to meet etrto specification. Rim manufacturers must do the same.

    Look past the bulshit marketing. If the rim and tyre suggested step far outside etrto spec or what the tyre manufacturer mandates then that should ring alarm bells.



    www.thecycleclinic.co.uk
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,174
    well said
    left the forum March 2023
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,719
    I notice the new hookless Zipp 303s reviewed on the website are even wider - 25mm internally!
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • Jack_Luke
    Jack_Luke Posts: 23
    edited May 2020
    I'm following this thread with great interest – it is something we've been discussing a lot among the team and are looking to investigating further in the near future.

    I notice the new hookless Zipp 303s reviewed on the website are even wider - 25mm internally!

    Just to be clear, yesterday's Zipp article was just a news story, not a review. Full reviews will always be scored on BikeRadar.com, and will live under this section of the site: https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/
    Assistant Editor for BikeRadar.com. Keep up to date with my latest work here.
  • I not aware of any issues with giant rims.
    The asians do seem to know what they are doing most of the time.

    It's the wild west out there.

    I dont think there is an enve road rim today that fully meets etrto specifications. Think there bead hooks cutting into challange tyres.
    www.thecycleclinic.co.uk
  • Hunt to be fair to them use kinlins rims mostly and therefore they meet etrto specs.
    www.thecycleclinic.co.uk
  • small_steps
    small_steps Posts: 15
    Giant says that the new 2021 wheels are hookless, as did the Giant concept store in Melbourne (unlike the 2020s). All of this is very confusing, and your combined wisdom, which I greatly appreciate, is not making my task clearer...
  • super_davo
    super_davo Posts: 1,116
    I don't think anyone is disputing that 2021 Giants have hookless rims... The question is whether it matters to your bike buying decision.

    The debate about pros & cons of hookless will probably rage on for another few pages, mostly centering on types of wheels you won't be using and tyres you won't be using either.

    From a bike purchase perspective, buy the bike you like & if you don't like the wheels it comes with, you can always sell them on and get some wheels you do.

    The hookless rims certainly wouldn't be a deal killer for me. It's only a part of the bike equation and a part that's much easier to rectify than others.
  • neeb
    neeb Posts: 4,467
    I think that's good enough advice assuming you really know what you want and are buying from a well-informed position. A lot of people won't be.

    The ETRTO guidelines mentioned above by thecycleclinic were a bit of a revelation to me - basically, nearly all tyre manufacturers make their tyres to these guidelines, according to which the narrowest tyre you should be running on a 25C rim (even a hooked one, never mind hookless) is 45mm!

    This chart is from the 2019 Continental catalogue but all of the big tyre manufacturers seem to follow ETRTO:



    It's pretty staggering that one of the biggest (maybe the biggest) bike manufacturers in the world is selling their premium performance road bike model with wheels that are only safe to use with 45mm tubless tyres according to international standards! Also not making this clear, and presumably selling the bikes pre-fitted with much narrower tyres?