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Drugs in other sports and the media.

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  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,479

    I'm happy we aren't a billionaire's life-sized Subbuteo team,

    You're owned by someone who collects sports teams like some people collect cat figurines
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,758

    ...And yes, the injury load (which is *still* awful) has been put down to not doping properly. At least the part of how long it take players come back fro injury looks like it could be linked. Actual injuries could have more to getting six shades of sh*t kicked out of us up and down the country, to the pundits comments of "don't like it up 'em, soft Southern pansies" etc.

    IIRC most of the injuries occurred during training.
    Hard to blame someone else for those.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,006

    RichN95. said:

    orraloon said:

    Not the most pressing of things in these v strange times.

    However, listening to the BBC MOTD podcast with Lineker, Shearer and Wright, rather good actually, the episode on Top 10 Premier League Managers... When discussing Arsene Wenger's intro to Arsenal in the 90s, Ian Wright launches into this long recount of how he introduced 'vitamin injections' and 'tablets' which made them so much fitter inside oh just a few weeks, how he and other of the more mature players would visit a clinic in France for treatments various....

    Both Lineker and Shearer press the 'oi suspicious' button but Wright just keeps on going.

    Nothing to see there, not at all. Dan! Dan! Wherefore art thou?


    To be fair to Wenger though, he's been the one manger over the years who has consistently tried to get football to take doping seriously.

    For example 2004: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/wenger-suspects-imports-of-doping-27488.html

    And 2015: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/nov/10/arsene-wenger-football-doping-arsenal
    *Disclosure: I'm an Arsenal fan*

    Arsene brought vitamin injections and creatine injections with him. There wasn't the same needle aversion back in those days (even in cycling). Worth noting that the summer he won his first trophy Pantani was winning the Festina edition TdF. It was a loooong time ago. He dropped the creatine when it looked like players were bulking up too much and getting injured and less mobile. If you look at early years henry V later years you can see him drop some upper body muscle, there was a period when he was seriously built.

    He's talked publicly about players that came from Italy having dubious blood measurements (the implication that it was team led, not individual players).

    Oh and in 2006 we lost a Champions League final to a superb Barcelona team who may have been implicated in Puerto. I've got a few friends that think there should be an asterix by that result.

    Meanwhile, one of football's most celebrated managers had a couple of nandrolone positives in his career....

    http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2017/04/25/sharapova-guardiola-doping-darkness-and-light-250401/
    I have some vague memory when I still followed football closely of Arsenal having a tonne of injuries all the time in the mid '00s and always suspected it was to do with not having a doping regime.

    I should add since this is football I have no horse in the Arsenal race and find the club and their fanbase amazingly irritating.
    We have an incredibly irritating fanbase. We're the worst (at least that's what I'll believe, in the same way I believe that pundits and refs are biased against us). And yes, the injury load (which is *still* awful) has been put down to not doping properly. At least the part of how long it take players come back fro injury looks like it could be linked. Actual injuries could have more to getting six shades of sh*t kicked out of us up and down the country, to the pundits comments of "don't like it up 'em, soft Southern pansies" etc.

    PS - bias is a product of lazy narrative. It's not that people hate us and are biased in that way, it's that people reach for the easiest narrative. That's why it can apply to multiple clubs. I hear it in matches where "falls over too easily even if there was contact" turns into "petulant revenge foul" in seconds if a player tries to protect themself.
    I read an excellent article by an Arsenal physio who explained in detail the reasons behind various injuries. Extremely fit players (Wenger's preference for last minute goals) are more prone to muscle injuries, so all else equal Arsenal under Wenger would have more injuries. Broken bones are considered unlucky

    The other factor, not mentioned by the physio, is that Arsenal have had a lot of injury prone players (e.g. Wilshere, Rosicky, Diaby, Welbeck, Oxlade-Chamberlain) who get injured wherever they go.

    Completey off topic, but watching Rosicky play was a beautiful thing.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,187
    RichN95. said:

    I'm happy we aren't a billionaire's life-sized Subbuteo team,

    You're owned by someone who collects sports teams like some people collect cat figurines
    Yeah, but he's put zero money into the club. My barb was aimed at people who e.g. buy Shevchenko against the wishes of the club manager. I'm not a Kroenke fan, but I regard the fact that he essentially does absolutely nothing for the club as a positive.
    pblakeney said:

    ...And yes, the injury load (which is *still* awful) has been put down to not doping properly. At least the part of how long it take players come back fro injury looks like it could be linked. Actual injuries could have more to getting six shades of sh*t kicked out of us up and down the country, to the pundits comments of "don't like it up 'em, soft Southern pansies" etc.

    IIRC most of the injuries occurred during training.
    Hard to blame someone else for those.



    I read an excellent article by an Arsenal physio who explained in detail the reasons behind various injuries. Extremely fit players (Wenger's preference for last minute goals) are more prone to muscle injuries, so all else equal Arsenal under Wenger would have more injuries. Broken bones are considered unlucky

    The other factor, not mentioned by the physio, is that Arsenal have had a lot of injury prone players (e.g. Wilshere, Rosicky, Diaby, Welbeck, Oxlade-Chamberlain) who get injured wherever they go.

    Completey off topic, but watching Rosicky play was a beautiful thing.

    Yes, lots of injuries in training, there were even questions raised about the type of training pitches we used. In many years we had a fairly thin squad - great first 11 but not quite the same quality in depth. Players carrying minor injuries may have exacerbated them in training, or got compensation injuries. I'd not really heard that about Wenger and fitness before, but it makes sense.

    Wilshere's playing style (drawing a huge amount of fouls) always put him at risk. Diaby is one of the saddest stories in football, everyone that played with him said he had the potential to be an era-defining midfielder. He was 19 when he nearly had his foot taken off by a Sunderland player in the last minutes of a match they were already well beaten in. Most of his injuries can probably be traced back to that. I genuinely believe that without injuries he would have been up there with Vieira, Pogba and Makelele. This was probably his best match for us, absolutely bossing the midfield V Liverpool. It's worth watching just to see what we missed (though turn the censored music off)

    I'm not entirely convinced that broken bones are just bad luck (I'll admit there may be a fair amount of confirmation bias), we had three players that suffered absolutely horrendous leg breaks (Ramsey, Diaby and Eduardo) in the space of four years, they were some of the worst injuries I've ever seen in football. Some of that is probably down to our style of play - we were just quicker and faster passing than most other teams of the time, and some down to the conventional wisdom that the way to play us was to get physical to disrupt and intimidate us.

    And yes, Rosicky was a beautiful player. We were absolutely blessed with some of the players we got to watch - Bergkamp, Henry, Pires to name the three obvious choices, Kanu, Overmars and even a brief flirtation with Davor Suker to name some others.

    Sorry about the long argumentative post. I was bored. Bring back cycling.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,291 Lives Here
    ^^ Arsenal fans, always with the over explaining for why they are great despite not winning all that much.

  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 11,187

    ^^ Arsenal fans, always with the over explaining for why they are great despite not winning all that much.

    Absolutely everyone else realised that the only way to shut an Arsenal fan up is to completely ignore him ;)

    Want me to do FFP next?
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,006
    I don't buy this sweeping generalisations about fans of various clubs. There are plenty of fans sitting near me that I am fairly ashamed to be on the same side of.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,758
    Isn't generalisation the mainstay of football fandom?
    Most songs I know of certainly are.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,220

    I don't buy this sweeping generalisations about fans of various clubs. There are plenty of fans sitting near me that I am fairly ashamed to be on the same side of.

    One of the reasons I dislike football generally...
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,291 Lives Here

    I don't buy this sweeping generalisations about fans of various clubs. There are plenty of fans sitting near me that I am fairly ashamed to be on the same side of.

    That's because they're football fans innit.

    You wouldn't be able to have conversations about much without generalisations ;)
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,006

    I don't buy this sweeping generalisations about fans of various clubs. There are plenty of fans sitting near me that I am fairly ashamed to be on the same side of.

    That's because they're football fans innit.

    You wouldn't be able to have conversations about much without generalisations ;)
    You are not a football fan, but still managed to make a sweeping generalisation about Arsenal fans, so it is not limited to football fans. The alternative would be to talk about football itself.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,291 Lives Here

    I don't buy this sweeping generalisations about fans of various clubs. There are plenty of fans sitting near me that I am fairly ashamed to be on the same side of.

    That's because they're football fans innit.

    You wouldn't be able to have conversations about much without generalisations ;)
    You are not a football fan, but still managed to make a sweeping generalisation about Arsenal fans, so it is not limited to football fans. The alternative would be to talk about football itself.
    Fair. Though I have direct experience of football fans, but the actual football is behind various paywalls.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,220
    https://www.outsideonline.com/2410455/biological-passport-doping-study

    Interesting article, mathematical analysis of Russian runners times.
  • gsk82gsk82 Posts: 3,055
    EF's Mexican TT champion failed a drug test of a sample from April 2019, before he joined EF.
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • gsk82gsk82 Posts: 3,055
    Tom Dumoulin has quit the MPCC because he wants to use ketones, but tried to blame the MPCC not speaking out against the running of Paris - Nice.
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • gweedsgweeds Posts: 2,375
    gsk82 said:

    Tom Dumoulin has quit the MPCC because he wants to use ketones, but tried to blame the MPCC not speaking out against the running of Paris - Nice.

    Yeah. That one puzzled me.

    Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 18,200
    gweeds said:

    gsk82 said:

    Tom Dumoulin has quit the MPCC because he wants to use , but tried to blame the MPCC not speaking out against the running of Paris - Nice.

    Yeah. That one puzzled me.

    Especially as he was no where near the race.
    Ketones is the bottom line and the rest is just smoke and mirrors.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 18,200
    She produced the wow moment of the athletics world championships, so this should come as no surprise.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/52938089
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • gsk82gsk82 Posts: 3,055

    She produced the wow moment of the athletics world championships, so this should come as no surprise.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/52938089

    The BBC are reporting that she missed 4 tests. She says is completely normal.
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • CargobikeCargobike Posts: 748
    gsk82 said:

    She produced the wow moment of the athletics world championships, so this should come as no surprise.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/52938089

    The BBC are reporting that she missed 4 tests. She says is completely normal.
    3 actually.

    Rio Ferdinand managed to miss tests on a regular basis for Man Utd leading to a ban of 8 months. Professional footballers are far more molly-coddled than most pro-athletes, so it obviously happens.

    A family friend who is an ex-professional and Republic of Ireland footballer was threatened by the anti-doping authorities for nothing more than being unable to produce a "water" sample when they came a knocking, even though he'd played a full 90 minutes in high temperatures.

    What exactly do they expect athletes to pass after prolonged physical activity?
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,006
    Cargobike said:

    gsk82 said:

    She produced the wow moment of the athletics world championships, so this should come as no surprise.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/52938089

    The BBC are reporting that she missed 4 tests. She says is completely normal.
    3 actually.

    Rio Ferdinand managed to miss tests on a regular basis for Man Utd leading to a ban of 8 months. Professional footballers are far more molly-coddled than most pro-athletes, so it obviously happens.

    A family friend who is an ex-professional and Republic of Ireland footballer was threatened by the anti-doping authorities for nothing more than being unable to produce a "water" sample when they came a knocking, even though he'd played a full 90 minutes in high temperatures.

    What exactly do they expect athletes to pass after prolonged physical activity?
    Ferdinand was banned because he missed one test. He was selected for the test and went home.

    There are quite a few pros who talk about having to wait to produce a sample, so it is not that unusual.
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 18,200
    Cargobike said:

    gsk82 said:

    She produced the wow moment of the athletics world championships, so this should come as no surprise.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/52938089

    The BBC are reporting that she missed 4 tests. She says is completely normal.
    3 actually.

    Rio Ferdinand managed to miss tests on a regular basis for Man Utd leading to a ban of 8 months. Professional footballers are far more molly-coddled than most pro-athletes, so it obviously happens.

    A family friend who is an ex-professional and Republic of Ireland footballer was threatened by the anti-doping authorities for nothing more than being unable to produce a "water" sample when they came a knocking, even though he'd played a full 90 minutes in high temperatures.

    What exactly do they expect athletes to pass after prolonged physical activity?
    It's the same after a packed session in the Velodrome. Kept my niece behind for 2 hours until she could come up with the goods!

    Anyhow:
    In a statement, the AIU said: "The investigation into Ms Naser's three whereabouts failures in 2019 was ongoing at the time of the Doha World Championships and she was not provisionally suspended at that time.

    "Following conclusion of the investigation and a fourth whereabouts failure in January 2020, a notice of charge was issued and Ms Naser subject to an immediate provisional suspension.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,758
    edited June 2020
    Cargobike said:


    What exactly do they expect athletes to pass after prolonged physical activity?

    I dread to think!
    I have a lasting memory of my first day doing a tour of the Alps. I went through 12 x 700ml bidons that day and never needed the toilet once between hotels.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Dorset_BoyDorset_Boy Posts: 4,350
    pblakeney said:

    Cargobike said:


    What exactly do they expect athletes to pass after prolonged physical activity?

    I dread to think!
    I have a lasting memory of my first day doing a tour of the Alps. I went through 12 x 700ml bidons that day and never needed the toilet once between hotels.
    My first Etape in 2015. Pee at maybe 06.30, next about 20.00, and was like treacle, even though I'd drunk about 8 litres during the day!
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,479



    Ferdinand was banned because he missed one test. He was selected for the test and went home.


    Alex Ferguson has to take a lot of the blame. He told the testers to wait until training was over and then Ferdinand, who had a bit of a reputation for being absent-minded (at least did at West Ham), forgot to go and find them.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • joe2019joe2019 Posts: 1,222
    Christian Coleman has been provisionally suspended after missing a third doping test.

    Well I never.
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