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  • A lot of people are paid too little for what they do and lots paid too much. Getting balance right is rather tricky and nurses (often deservedly) get more attention than others due to profile and they are basically in public eye for their jobs.
  • PBlakeney wrote:
    I work shifts so I get leave every month.(I work total of 6 days and 6 nights in a month with 18 days off in total). And that's how overtime works, you go in when you're off. And get paid lots.
    I work extra hours when already there. Saves on wasted travelling time.
    Days off are days off.
    #betterthingstodo

    Whatever, I''m in 10 days off period so in work today and still have a week off after. Do what suits you. For me getting double time ie 24hrs for working 12 is worth it. And my travel time is paid.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,836
    People taking t’internet forums seriously intrigues me. :lol:
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • PBlakeney wrote:
    People taking t’internet forums seriously intrigues me. :lol:

    Well that's one thing we can whole heartedly agree on!
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    So, have a theory that the reason why nurses etc are treated like sacred cows in the UK is because, deep down, there’s a tacit agreement they’re paid too little for the job they do.

    Considering the required education level nurses are very well paid I believe. The thing with this stuff is that unless you look at how everyone is paid at the same time attempting to get a feel for who is underpaid and who overpaid is pretty much impossible. I think that nurses get treated like sacred cows more because we all knowingly appreciate them when we need them; their importance is obvious then but it doesn't mean they are underpaid; but when you are in pain you'd probably value any relief they can give at £100k per annum! Other people we value less because we perceive them to be less important or the things they do are not so nice but they are equally necessary. Douglas Adams explained this best of course.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,769
    Rolf F wrote:
    So, have a theory that the reason why nurses etc are treated like sacred cows in the UK is because, deep down, there’s a tacit agreement they’re paid too little for the job they do.

    Considering the required education level nurses are very well paid I believe.

    I think most have a degree level qualification these days. Not that that particularly means anything.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 46,831
    It intrigues me that some people don't seem to understand supply and demand in the labour market :)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,402 Lives Here
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    It intrigues me that some people don't seem to understand supply and demand in the labour market :)

    Go on, how does supply and demand work in a monopsony.

    300px-Monopsony-welfare-effects.svg.png

    Would have though long-time critic of state run industry would be aware of the deadweight loss of monopsony market structures.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,836
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,769
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    It intrigues me that some people don't seem to understand supply and demand in the labour market :)
    As PB points out, there is a shortage of supply in nursing...
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,402 Lives Here
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    It intrigues me that some people don't seem to understand supply and demand in the labour market :)
    As PB points out, there is a shortage of supply in nursing...

    As the graph of a monopsony predicts ;)
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 46,831
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    It intrigues me that some people don't seem to understand supply and demand in the labour market :)

    Go on, how does supply and demand work in a monopsony.

    300px-Monopsony-welfare-effects.svg.png

    Would have though long-time critic of state run industry would be aware of the deadweight loss of monopsony market structures.
    Why don't you explain your evidence to support why you think nurses are not paid enough rather than trying to divert onto theoretical conversations.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,402 Lives Here
    Nurse shortages and leaning heavily on imported labour which typically is more tolerant of lower pay & conditions suggest the pay is not sufficient for supply to match demand.

    Also having seen what nurses do when I had a stay on a ward and chatting pay, bluntly, they could find jobs with better pay & conditions fairly easily, and two nurses on the ward had done just that. So my anencdotal evidence correlated with the macro numbers and the theory.

    12 hour shifts rotating is a nightmare for your personal life, and health, let alone financial and logistical challenges around childcare etc and plenty of jobs have better pay and conditions for the same requirements on entry.
  • pinnopinno Posts: 42,789
    Well, having frequented the Hammersmith, Glasgow Royal, DGRI, Edinburgh Western, the common theme is that outwith nurses accommodation, most of them cannot afford to live near the hospitals. They have to often commute a long way to get to work.

    The root of the problem is not so much what they get paid, it's the cost of living.
    We have yet to make the leap from low wage/high cost economy to high wage/high cost economy. This makes us pretty unique in Europe.
    For a few examples of high wage/high cost economies: Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany..
    Low wage/Low cost economies: Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy.

    Whilst on the one hand we all benefit from higher minimum wages, economies struggle to sustain it.
    On the other, big companies with high numbers of personnel (especially in the services industry), take on many employees part time. We, the tax payer, then subsidise their incomes with working/child tax credits, housing benefit etc. Thereby subsidising the profits of Tesco et al as they don't contribute proportionally as much on terms of pensions, NI contribution etc.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Also having seen what nurses do when I had a stay on a ward and chatting pay, bluntly, they could find jobs with better pay & conditions fairly easily, and two nurses on the ward had done just that. So my anencdotal evidence correlated with the macro numbers and the theory..

    As can anyone with good qualifications who is capable of thinking, decision making etc who hasn't chosen a highly paid vocation.

    Thing is that the all of the public sector is being endlessly crapped up by idiot decision making and cost cutting, falling pay. I doubt it is the pay (which is pretty decent in absolute terms) that is the problem but how things are run these days; after all, things like shift systems etc are part of the job and always have been.

    The problem ultimately though is that whilst your two nurses can go off and easily find jobs with better pay and conditions, I doubt that all 300,000 nurses could do the same.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,402 Lives Here
    Rolf F wrote:
    Also having seen what nurses do when I had a stay on a ward and chatting pay, bluntly, they could find jobs with better pay & conditions fairly easily, and two nurses on the ward had done just that. So my anencdotal evidence correlated with the macro numbers and the theory..

    As can anyone with good qualifications who is capable of thinking, decision making etc who hasn't chosen a highly paid vocation.

    Thing is that the all of the public sector is being endlessly crapped up by idiot decision making and cost cutting, falling pay. I doubt it is the pay (which is pretty decent in absolute terms) that is the problem but how things are run these days; after all, things like shift systems etc are part of the job and always have been.

    The problem ultimately though is that whilst your two nurses can go off and easily find jobs with better pay and conditions, I doubt that all 300,000 nurses could do the same.

    sure but that's why the supply/demand graph had lines representing each side.

    IF you reduce wages, the supply reduces an amount - it doesn't suddenly disappear.

    Given demand is constant in this instance, if x is the equilibrium pay amount,where supply meets demand, x- some pay will reduce the number of people willing to do the job by whatever the elasticity is of the supply?
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,836
    Rolf F wrote:
    Thing is that the all of the public sector is being endlessly crapped up by idiot decision making and cost cutting, falling pay. I doubt it is the pay (which is pretty decent in absolute terms) that is the problem but how things are run these days; after all, things like shift systems etc are part of the job and always have been.
    This is probably true. Certainly was in my wife's case. Increased skill set required, increased workload, increased pressure. No salary increase to match as a sweetener. The question though is not so much about retention as being able to attract replacements.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Thing is that the all of the public sector is being endlessly crapped up by idiot decision making and cost cutting, falling pay. I doubt it is the pay (which is pretty decent in absolute terms) that is the problem but how things are run these days; after all, things like shift systems etc are part of the job and always have been.
    This is probably true. Certainly was in my wife's case. Increased skill set required, increased workload, increased pressure. No salary increase to match as a sweetener. The question though is not so much about retention as being able to attract replacements.

    And of course the UK way of doing things is not to raise salary; anything but that - rather they just lower standards. We'll see this times ten after Brexit.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 46,831
    Rolf F wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Thing is that the all of the public sector is being endlessly crapped up by idiot decision making and cost cutting, falling pay. I doubt it is the pay (which is pretty decent in absolute terms) that is the problem but how things are run these days; after all, things like shift systems etc are part of the job and always have been.
    This is probably true. Certainly was in my wife's case. Increased skill set required, increased workload, increased pressure. No salary increase to match as a sweetener. The question though is not so much about retention as being able to attract replacements.

    And of course the UK way of doing things is not to raise salary; anything but that - rather they just lower standards. We'll see this times ten after Brexit.
    Are you a public sector employee by any chance Rolf? If unhappy with your lot you could always join the part of the economy that pays your wages :wink:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,836
    Rolf F wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Thing is that the all of the public sector is being endlessly crapped up by idiot decision making and cost cutting, falling pay. I doubt it is the pay (which is pretty decent in absolute terms) that is the problem but how things are run these days; after all, things like shift systems etc are part of the job and always have been.
    This is probably true. Certainly was in my wife's case. Increased skill set required, increased workload, increased pressure. No salary increase to match as a sweetener. The question though is not so much about retention as being able to attract replacements.

    And of course the UK way of doing things is not to raise salary; anything but that - rather they just lower standards. We'll see this times ten after Brexit.
    Actually, it is the opposite. They are increasing standards with nurses doing more and more of doctor’s day to day stuff. Without the salary, natch.
    Hence the need to be degree qualified.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Thing is that the all of the public sector is being endlessly crapped up by idiot decision making and cost cutting, falling pay. I doubt it is the pay (which is pretty decent in absolute terms) that is the problem but how things are run these days; after all, things like shift systems etc are part of the job and always have been.
    This is probably true. Certainly was in my wife's case. Increased skill set required, increased workload, increased pressure. No salary increase to match as a sweetener. The question though is not so much about retention as being able to attract replacements.

    And of course the UK way of doing things is not to raise salary; anything but that - rather they just lower standards. We'll see this times ten after Brexit.
    Are you a public sector employee by any chance Rolf? If unhappy with your lot you could always join the part of the economy that pays your wages :wink:

    I think you know I am. I'm with PBlakeneys missus. It is being crapped up by austerity - it's like running a car on a shoestring; it gets you from a to b mostly but it doesn't do it as well as it should and you are constantly worried it will pack in entirely. And when it does you'll not get quite enough money for the replacement so that will be censored as well. And at the end of the day you end up spending far more and wasting far more time than if you just had an adequate budget to start with. The government thinks that this is efficient - the government is utterly wrong (and I wish Defra would stop meddling - they couldn't make a decent choice if they tried to procure a teaspoon).

    Also, as far as the part of the economy that pays my wages goes - I work for the benefit of the environment. Any private sector job is always about making money. It doesn't matter what it is you are doing, the reason you are doing it is to make money. I'm not interested enough in money to be motivated by that. Besides, sh1te pensions in the private sector!

    As an aside - why do you think that it is the private sector that pays my wages? The public sector employs a huge number of contractors, consultants etc. I would say that the public sector is just as likely to be paying your wages as the private sector is paying mine.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Thing is that the all of the public sector is being endlessly crapped up by idiot decision making and cost cutting, falling pay. I doubt it is the pay (which is pretty decent in absolute terms) that is the problem but how things are run these days; after all, things like shift systems etc are part of the job and always have been.
    This is probably true. Certainly was in my wife's case. Increased skill set required, increased workload, increased pressure. No salary increase to match as a sweetener. The question though is not so much about retention as being able to attract replacements.

    And of course the UK way of doing things is not to raise salary; anything but that - rather they just lower standards. We'll see this times ten after Brexit.
    Actually, it is the opposite. They are increasing standards with nurses doing more and more of doctor’s day to day stuff. Without the salary, natch.
    Hence the need to be degree qualified.

    But a degree is a meaningless qualification now - a degree is just what A levels were 25 years ago; a basic minimum qualification to be able to do anything half decent but otherwise a stepping stone to a degree that gets you a graduate level job - which now is an MSc.

    In our case we don't train enough people any more so the organisation, having failed to get qualified people into post, either gives up or makes do with unqualified people.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 46,831
    Rolf F wrote:
    Besides, sh1te pensions in the private sector!
    Yep, those final salary pensions are terrible :roll:
    Rolf F wrote:
    As an aside - why do you think that it is the private sector that pays my wages? The public sector employs a huge number of contractors, consultants etc. I would say that the public sector is just as likely to be paying your wages as the private sector is paying mine.
    We pay our taxes to fund the public sector. Simple.

    My Group's customers pay my wages.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,402 Lives Here
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Besides, sh1te pensions in the private sector!
    Yep, those final salary pensions are terrible :roll:
    Rolf F wrote:
    As an aside - why do you think that it is the private sector that pays my wages? The public sector employs a huge number of contractors, consultants etc. I would say that the public sector is just as likely to be paying your wages as the private sector is paying mine.
    We pay our taxes to fund the public sector. Simple.

    My Group's customers pay my wages.

    The entitlement, sheesh.

    Do you go to the employees of every firm you've ever bought a product or service from and claim the same? Or is that somehow different?

    The difference between tax or not is the mechanism of expenditure, that's all, hence it being a component of gross demand like any other expenditure.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Besides, sh1te pensions in the private sector!
    Yep, those final salary pensions are terrible :roll:
    Rolf F wrote:
    As an aside - why do you think that it is the private sector that pays my wages? The public sector employs a huge number of contractors, consultants etc. I would say that the public sector is just as likely to be paying your wages as the private sector is paying mine.
    We pay our taxes to fund the public sector. Simple.

    My Group's customers pay my wages.

    Ahhh, right; this is good news. Can you point me to some private sector companies that still have an open final salary scheme then?

    Bit simplistic re taxes maybe? As I said, the public sector pays a lot of money into the private sector. So the private sector is also paid by taxpayers.

    Who are your customers? Do you know that they are all not receiving public sector income (not that it matters if they aren't - the point is that you cannot say that the private sector is not funded by the tax payer even if your bit is not). But if they are receiving income from the public sector then you are also funded by the taxpayer.

    There are a lot of private sector companies that would immediately go bankrupt if the public sector didn't pay for them. In many cases, this would be a good thing.......
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 46,831
    Rolf F wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Besides, sh1te pensions in the private sector!
    Yep, those final salary pensions are terrible :roll:
    Rolf F wrote:
    As an aside - why do you think that it is the private sector that pays my wages? The public sector employs a huge number of contractors, consultants etc. I would say that the public sector is just as likely to be paying your wages as the private sector is paying mine.
    We pay our taxes to fund the public sector. Simple.

    My Group's customers pay my wages.

    Ahhh, right; this is good news. Can you point me to some private sector companies that still have an open final salary scheme then?

    Bit simplistic re taxes maybe? As I said, the public sector pays a lot of money into the private sector. So the private sector is also paid by taxpayers.

    Who are your customers? Do you know that they are all not receiving public sector income (not that it matters if they aren't - the point is that you cannot say that the private sector is not funded by the tax payer even if your bit is not). But if they are receiving income from the public sector then you are also funded by the taxpayer.

    There are a lot of private sector companies that would immediately go bankrupt if the public sector didn't pay for them. In many cases, this would be a good thing.......
    Whoops, read it too fast as 'public sector pensions'. Most are closed in the private sector and I don't have one. But there is sufficient upside in other aspects.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Whoops, read it too fast as 'public sector pensions'. Most are closed in the private sector and I don't have one. But there is sufficient upside in other aspects.

    That makes sense. And I do (well, part final, part "career" average) - I'm ok with my salary as it is (at least I don't need any more) so ideally I'd like my retirement income to match it. It should be pretty close.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • haydenmhaydenm Posts: 2,934
    Rolf F wrote:

    Also, as far as the part of the economy that pays my wages goes - I work for the benefit of the environment. Any private sector job is always about making money. It doesn't matter what it is you are doing, the reason you are doing it is to make money. I'm not interested enough in money to be motivated by that. Besides, sh1te pensions in the private sector!

    I don't really think that is entirely true although my job is about making money for myself and for rich people. Luckily what I do sequesters lots and lots of carbon and is managed to international sustainability standards, I wouldn't be so comfortable with it if it wasn't. A very effective way of getting good outcomes for society is to make it financially viable. ESG and ethical investments are a growing thing these days, why not save the planet and make a sh!t ton of money at the same time :wink:
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 46,831
    Rolf F wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Whoops, read it too fast as 'public sector pensions'. Most are closed in the private sector and I don't have one. But there is sufficient upside in other aspects.

    That makes sense. And I do (well, part final, part "career" average) - I'm ok with my salary as it is (at least I don't need any more) so ideally I'd like my retirement income to match it. It should be pretty close.
    Fair enough. I am taking a slightly different strategy with my pension pots as only part of the plan.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,402 Lives Here
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    It intrigues me that some people don't seem to understand supply and demand in the labour market :)

    Go on, how does supply and demand work in a monopsony.

    300px-Monopsony-welfare-effects.svg.png

    Would have though long-time critic of state run industry would be aware of the deadweight loss of monopsony market structures.
    Why don't you explain your evidence to support why you think nurses are not paid enough rather than trying to divert onto theoretical conversations.

    On reflection, it was you who brought up the theory first....
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