Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    Thicker spokes are stiffer wayne17. The only reason to use CX-ray is if building very light wheels. I do that with the OP rim but with Carbon ti hubs only. Any thing else is heavier and you might as well then say screw the weight and go all sensible with force or race rear and laser front.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • wayne17wayne17 Posts: 32
    Thicker spokes are stiffer wayne17. The only reason to use CX-ray is if building very light wheels. I do that with the OP rim but with Carbon ti hubs only. Any thing else is heavier and you might as well then say screw the weight and go all sensible with force or race rear and laser front.
    Makes sense will probably go with laser/ race combination. But quite fancy doing the build with cx-rays as I have never used them before, if I did build with the cx-Ray do you think the rear wheel would no be stiff enough.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    That depends on how you ride. It won't be as stiff and that means a faster fatigue rate. On a non aero wheel the CX rays is quick and easy to build with and if using using straight pull hubs it means the wheel is trueable.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • wayne17wayne17 Posts: 32
    That depends on how you ride. It won't be as stiff and that means a faster fatigue rate. On a non aero wheel the CX rays is quick and easy to build with and if using using straight pull hubs it means the wheel is trueable.
    Cheers thanks for you advice
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,421
    Anyone aware of a source for 42mm deep 24mm wide alloy rims?

    Pro Lite have updated a couple of their wheelsets with a new wider rim designs, notably the Bracciano A42W - http://www.pro-lite.net/road-wheels/bracciano-a42w

    The old bracciano A42 had a rim profile that appeared pretty much identical to the H Plus son SL42, but that rim never quite appealed with the 19.5mm width you'd need very skinny tyres to make the most of it.

    Tempted to try a set, might be a good way to scratch the deep section itch, would be happier with another 4 spokes though.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,898
    Replaced a worn Pacenti SL 23 rim with a Kinlin T 26 rim... like for like swap, with very close ERD.

    The process wasn't without its dramas, as the rim belonged to one of the infamous Superstar wheels (for those who remember that thread... ) and hence machine built. The nipples used have a double square section and a longer internal thread, which starts further up the nipple. To cut a long story short, Sapim nipples just about did the job without jamming in the spoke thread
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    No 42mm deep alloy rims. Well there is the h plus son sl42 which is tank like.

    Replaced a couple of sl23 with the xr26t myself. Easier if you originally used normal nipples.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    First samples for testing have arrived. this is totally new hub. not a rebrand. 2:1 lacing for the rear (24H) 4 pawl freehub (independent leaf springs) and a big 36T ratchet rings. bearings are 2x 6901 front and 2x 6902 (shell) 2x 6802 freehub rear. All bearings are NTN with LLU contacting seals. they feel like a royce hub when turning the axle by hand.
    flange spacing is 17.4mm DS/49mm NDS and 54/46mm PCD. front is more conventional with 68mm flange spacing and 40mm PCD.

    IMG-20190409-110146.jpg
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • alanyualanyu Posts: 68
    I've used three sets of handbuilt carbon wheels and shimano RS500, all from taobao.com.

    RS500=UT6800, maybe several gramms lighter due to the finishing.
    The cheapest handbuilt one (around 500 USD): SuperTeam 38/38 clincher rim, mac cn424 spoke and novatec 511/522 hub (20 front, 24 rear with 1:1) = 1450 grs;
    The middle one (around 750 USD): inner-asymmetrical 38/45 TLR rim, pillar wing20 spoke and SIM+ S3x6E hub (20 front, 24 rear with 1:1)= 1545 grs;
    The most expensive one (around 950 USD): superlight 38/50 TL rim (not need tape), sapim cx-ray spoke and Powerway R51 hub (18 front, 21 rear with 2:1)= 1271 grs.

    Shimano is durable and reliable of course. It's quite which I love that. I used them @ rainy and sunny.

    The performance of all my handbuilt wheels overstands RS500 (not including braking, which is a weak point of most rim-brake carbon rim), even the cheapest one: Accerelating, weight and stiffness. One fxxking problem is that I hate the noise made by freehub. 511/522 is acceptable while SIM+ and Powerway are XXXX. Thus I've adjusted the pawls and added much NB52 grease into the freehub to make them quiter.

    The cheapest one worked well but didn't suprise me. Unfortunately the front wheel was broken after a serious crash and I sold the rear one to my friend at a low price. (Some small crashes before resulted in nothing).
    The second one has the highest stiffness, the tension of DR side is 150kgf, but somehow it is a little heavy (especially the reinforced-designed rim). My power is not high, so the accelation at low speed is the worst of my handbuilt wheelsets, but definitely it feels best for max power sprint.
    The superlight one, only around 810 grs for the 38/50 TL rim pair, the same weight of schmolke SL45/45 clincher rim pair, amazing at its cost compared to schmolke and I'm sure they are made in China. Thanks to the superlight rim, the accelation is very well, and the stiffness is the middle one. The weakness is durable and the braking is the worst. Riding downhill with this wheelset in rainy days is a nighmare (in sunny days it works well). I just hold the brake to keep at a low speed because it's impossible to stop at a short distance at that condition (black prince pads). I maintanced it myself after around 1100km on-road and 400km off-road. Apparently it's not designed for off-road.
  • Donie75Donie75 Posts: 92
    Hi, I’m just after buying a Cannondale Synapse carbon disc and I’m looking to get a new set of wheels built. I’ve had a few sets of hand-built wheels before but these will be the first set of disc wheels. I’ve had Open Pros and H+Sons Arcetypes both on Ultegra hubs and found both great. I plan on running 28mm GP4000s. I was looking at the Strada Big Guy Disc wheels as I’m a big guy.
    Can anyone recommend something similar or better that I can get built up for around the same money. I have a friend who builds wheels so I’m sorted that way.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,898
    Donie75 wrote:
    Hi, I’m just after buying a Cannondale Synapse carbon disc and I’m looking to get a new set of wheels built. I’ve had a few sets of hand-built wheels before but these will be the first set of disc wheels. I’ve had Open Pros and H+Sons Arcetypes both on Ultegra hubs and found both great. I plan on running 28mm GP4000s. I was looking at the Strada Big Guy Disc wheels as I’m a big guy.
    Can anyone recommend something similar or better that I can get built up for around the same money. I have a friend who builds wheels so I’m sorted that way.

    Stick to Archetype then... they are not disc specific, but they look OK and they are nice, solid rims... easy to fit tyres to... more modern rims are tubeless and more of a pain to fit a tyre, they need tubeless tape and all that nonsense.

    Best hubs are Hope (and you can even chose the colour), get the steel freehub option and forget about freehub chewing issues.

    Front can be built with Sapim D-Light spokes (28?) and rear maybe 32 built with Sapim Race if you are heavy
  • mrb123mrb123 Posts: 2,121
    Why not H Plus Son Hydra then which are disc specific?
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    tyre fitting to the hydra rim is fairly easy with tubeless tape. The novatec hubs are O.K but I would go with something different.

    how heavy are you. The Kinlin XR31RTS rim in 24H built with triple butted spokes is a robust wheelset that will take load. If the radial, lateral, torsional stiffness is high then low spoke counts can work. If you 140kg then this set is not for you. If you are 110kg then you should be fine.

    the novatec hubs would not be my first choice. They are O.K but bearing life is not great. The novatec hubs pictured in the wheels are the ones Whiskers sell and they have NBK bearing in them, not the best.

    Ugo like the hope hubs, I like the Miche made disc brake hubs. DT Swiss 350's are eually good. steel freehub are fine but do the lockring up tight and the cassette cant move. no matter how many times people say its the rider that notched the cassette I keep on finding cassette lockrings not done up tight enough to stop notching. Those thread can take 60Nm.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Donie75Donie75 Posts: 92
    Thanks for the suggestions. I’m leaning towards the DT 350 hubs or maybe the new Shimano R8000 but I haven’t heard any reports yet. My mate has suggested Kinlin XR31’s too. The DT RR511 looks good too. I’ll check prices and see what is decent value.
    Thanks
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,898
    Donie75 wrote:
    Thanks for the suggestions. I’m leaning towards the DT 350 hubs or maybe the new Shimano R8000

    Based on what?

    DT hubs are good, but they require specific and expensive tools for service... SHimano are also good, but once you've pitted the bearing races (which will happen eventually) they are good for the bin

    Hope are also good, don't need specific tools. Also, every single spare part for Hope is ready available... and they are made in England. If you need advice, you can just contact the factory, try contacting Madison for a problem with your SHimano or DT and see how great their customer service is. :wink:
  • Donie75Donie75 Posts: 92
    Based on knowledge of the brand really. I have experience with bot Shimano and DT. I've had 3 sets of Shimano hubbed handbuilts and never had an issue. I'll look into Hope. Can you recommend a suitable Hope hub set for around £150-180 that will do 32 spoke centrelock disc and thru axles.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,898
    Donie75 wrote:
    Based on knowledge of the brand really. I have experience with bot Shimano and DT. I've had 3 sets of Shimano hubbed handbuilts and never had an issue. I'll look into Hope. Can you recommend a suitable Hope hub set for around £150-180 that will do 32 spoke centrelock disc and thru axles.

    Hope RS4 Centrelock... normally at RRP just over 200 for the pair, but currently they are on offer on Chain Reaction cycles

    If it's too much money, just get the rear... front hubs are much of a muchness and it's not worth spending big money on... they don't really do anything... it's the rear where the problems arise
  • svettysvetty Posts: 1,899
    Another vote for Hope - they're just so smooth and reliable
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    Shimano hub races on pit through neglect. If they are serviced preventively then they can do stellar milages. 50,000 miles from a cared for hub is possible. My disc brake hubs also require no proprietary tools for service, there boxes full of spares and they are smooth and reliable.

    The only special tool DT Swiss hubs need is the ring nut tool, that and a sturdy vice and strong shoulders.

    I am struggling to see what you have, ugo, against Shimano hubs. the only thing that is limiting about them is they are 12mm TA only except for the cheaper non series RS505 hubs which are tiagra level really. You get mostly what you pay for.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • davetexdavetex Posts: 20
    Can anyone recommend some 50mm ish carbon rims? Keen to build up a pair of deeper wheels for crits
  • drhaggisdrhaggis Posts: 771
    So I'm fed up of wheels dying on me, either through freehub clogging, bearings wearing in a year (2000 miles, very entry level factory Giant wheels) or seized nipples in rear Aksium (3000 miles, one mild Scottish winter). This is on my do-it-all bike (N=1), so commuting, sportives, and club riding. I clean the bike between weekly and fortnightly, and definitely _not_ after every wet ride.

    So if I spent £300 to £350 on some handbuilt wheels with brass nipples, should I expect better life (say > 3 years)? Or is my behaviour abusive enough that I should treat wheels as disposable? Similarly, how often should I service cup and cone bearings, given 300 miles/month on all weather in Edinburgh?
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,421
    Thinking about trying some Triplet wheel building - does anyone have any 24 hole rims they can recommend? The important thing is that the spoke holes are fairly centred on the rim, or at the least minimally angled.

    I see Halo have some designated 16/8 rims which I'm leaning towards although haven't used Halo before so not certain of the quality/strength?

    A quick look in the garage this morning suggested the DT swiss r460 has pretty centred spoke holes so should be workable, i've got a DT rr511 on the way for another job so can have a look at that too, conversely the Kinlin XR31t has fairly pronounced spoke stepping so probably won't work.

    Just for those that don't know - triplet lacing is where you have 16 spokes on the drive side of the wheel and 8 spokes on the other side - so 24 in total (a common rim drilling) and you can use 32 spoke hubs (again very common!). You can also use triplet lacing on disc brake front wheels - so more spokes on the rotor side.

    The advantage is that it balances the tension in the spokes across the wheel - so on a conventional wheel non-drive spokes are often at 50% of the tension of the drive spokes- half the spokes doubles the tension in those spokes.

    Campagnolo/Fulcrum in particular are known for their triplet lacing eg on the Zondas (although they use 21 spokes total, 14 drive side, 7 non drive - not so easy to do without manufacturing your own hubs and rims! - 24 spoke total is about the only practical count for the rest of us)
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 9,837
    drhaggis wrote:
    So if I spent £300 to £350 on some handbuilt wheels with brass nipples, should I expect better life (say > 3 years)? Or is my behaviour abusive enough that I should treat wheels as disposable? Similarly, how often should I service cup and cone bearings, given 300 miles/month on all weather in Edinburgh?
    I had a set of Ambrossio Excellence fitted to my Record hubs for my winter/commuting bike about 6 years ago. Still running fine. Not the fastest but very hard wearing. The hubs are now 8 years old. The original Mavics only lasted 2 years. Boy, do they bang when they pop! :shock:
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,898
    timothyw wrote:
    Thinking about trying some Triplet wheel building - does anyone have any 24 hole rims they can recommend? The important thing is that the spoke holes are fairly centred on the rim, or at the least minimally angled.

    I see Halo have some designated 16/8 rims which I'm leaning towards although haven't used Halo before so not certain of the quality/strength?

    A quick look in the garage this morning suggested the DT swiss r460 has pretty centred spoke holes so should be workable, i've got a DT rr511 on the way for another job so can have a look at that too, conversely the Kinlin XR31t has fairly pronounced spoke stepping so probably won't work.

    Just for those that don't know - triplet lacing is where you have 16 spokes on the drive side of the wheel and 8 spokes on the other side - so 24 in total (a common rim drilling) and you can use 32 spoke hubs (again very common!). You can also use triplet lacing on disc brake front wheels - so more spokes on the rotor side.

    The advantage is that it balances the tension in the spokes across the wheel - so on a conventional wheel non-drive spokes are often at 50% of the tension of the drive spokes- half the spokes doubles the tension in those spokes.

    Campagnolo/Fulcrum in particular are known for their triplet lacing eg on the Zondas (although they use 21 spokes total, 14 drive side, 7 non drive - not so easy to do without manufacturing your own hubs and rims! - 24 spoke total is about the only practical count for the rest of us)

    Whilst triplet lacing fixes tension balance issues, you are still left with a rim supported by 24 spokes and therefore a weaker wheel (in terms of load capacity) than one built with 28 or 32. At your size, I'd probably not bother...
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,421
    Whilst triplet lacing fixes tension balance issues, you are still left with a rim supported by 24 spokes and therefore a weaker wheel (in terms of load capacity) than one built with 28 or 32. At your size, I'd probably not bother...
    This is true up to a point, but the last three wheels I've killed have had two with drive side rim hole failure, and one with drive side hub failure (a 36 spoke 105 hub).

    Somewhat lower tension on drive side might make this at least slightly less likely to happen.

    I certainly wouldn't take them touring (and most likely will only be doing disc fronts triplet, rather than rears).
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,898
    timothyw wrote:
    Whilst triplet lacing fixes tension balance issues, you are still left with a rim supported by 24 spokes and therefore a weaker wheel (in terms of load capacity) than one built with 28 or 32. At your size, I'd probably not bother...
    This is true up to a point, but the last three wheels I've killed have had two with drive side rim hole failure, and one with drive side hub failure (a 36 spoke 105 hub).

    Somewhat lower tension on drive side might make this at least slightly less likely to happen.

    I certainly wouldn't take them touring (and most likely will only be doing disc fronts triplet, rather than rears).

    It's a nice idea, but full of compromises... already having rims with perfectly central drilling (in the absence of specifically drilled rims for 2:1) is a compromise, as nipples exit angle won't be ideal...
  • drhaggisdrhaggis Posts: 771
    OK, I've asked around, and been recommended Miche hubs coupled with the older 17mm Open Pros and 32/32 J-bend spokes. I'm having second thoughts, first about 32/32 spokes (I'm 72 kg and carry about a 5 kg backpack when commuting), second about settling for narrower rims than I have now, and finally about the money: it seems like a side-grade for 1/3 the price of the bike when new. Especially because I'm set on going disc brakes for my next commutraining bike. Maybe, just maybe, I'm better off letting the rear aksium die an untrue death and use C2W and the money saved to get a new bike (nex
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 9,837
    drhaggis wrote:
    OK, I've asked around, and been recommended Miche hubs coupled with the older 17mm Open Pros and 32/32 J-bend spokes. I'm having second thoughts, first about 32/32 spokes (I'm 72 kg and carry about a 5 kg backpack when commuting), second about settling for narrower rims than I have now, and finally about the money: it seems like a side-grade for 1/3 the price of the bike when new. Especially because I'm set on going disc brakes for my next commutraining bike. Maybe, just maybe, I'm better off letting the rear aksium die an untrue death and use C2W and the money saved to get a new bike (nex
    The Mavics will be fine with 32s, if you use disc brakes. I am heavier FYI.
    I really wouldn't recommend them for commuting in cruddy weather using rim brakes. Lesson learned.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • drhaggisdrhaggis Posts: 771
    pblakeney wrote:
    drhaggis wrote:
    OK, I've asked around, and been recommended Miche hubs coupled with the older 17mm Open Pros and 32/32 J-bend spokes. I'm having second thoughts, first about 32/32 spokes (I'm 72 kg and carry about a 5 kg backpack when commuting), second about settling for narrower rims than I have now, and finally about the money: it seems like a side-grade for 1/3 the price of the bike when new. Especially because I'm set on going disc brakes for my next commutraining bike. Maybe, just maybe, I'm better off letting the rear aksium die an untrue death and use C2W and the money saved to get a new bike (nex
    The Mavics will be fine with 32s, if you use disc brakes. I am heavier FYI.
    I really wouldn't recommend them for commuting in cruddy weather using rim brakes. Lesson learned.

    I meant it the other way! Feeling 32/32 was way too much for my weight, and that 28/28 or 24/28 would have been fine! But thanks for the comments about the rims. Surprisingly, the rims in my Aksiums seem... fine?
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,421
    Yeah, 32 spoke open pros are overkill for you, especially on the front where they are overkill for anyone without front panniers.

    It's just a good solid build though. You asked for reliability and this is what they are.

    Anyhow, I'd suggest looking at a set of kinlin xr22t rims (Malcolm sells them as Borg 22, spa cycles also have builds among others), they are wider, tubeless compatible, similarly light, or perhaps dt Swiss r460 rims which have the same advantages.

    At your weight I'd probably say 28 spoke rear and 20/24 front.
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