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Ardennes Classics 2019 *Spoilers*

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  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,167
    RichN95 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:

    Alright then the last 700m.
    It was certainly a good ride, but I wouldn't call outsprinting Simon Clarke with long sprint "the best performance I've ever seen in cycling"

    What about Trentin? Or Alaphilippe who quite plainly had a very easy 3km prior?

    AGR is a properly difficult race, given the parcours. And he definitely was doing a lot of work whenever the cameras did cut to him in the chase.

    There's a reason everyone is saying it was a super impressive win and why saying otherwise is being contrarian.

    A more interesting argument is that he clearly needs to work on his race-craft as his legs won't always bail him out.
    Trentin had spent 30km struggling to follow Kwiatkowski and Alaphilippe failed to outsprint Fuglsang.

    It was a very good race, and it was a good win. He's clearly going to win many races. But whenever someone new comes along, the media hype goes into overdrive.

    The big thing for me is that he disrupted the normal order of the end of these types of races.

    I think that normally that chasing group would have settled for scraps, when they were told the gap was 45s+ (we know that the time gaps were not very accurate as well). But VdP wasn't interested/didn't know/didn't care about the "normal" finish for this race situation.

    Given so many riders were able to follow/work with VdP, seems to me like riders are not normally willing to roll the dice in this type of scenario, when perhaps they should do more often.
  • RichN95 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:

    Alright then the last 700m.
    It was certainly a good ride, but I wouldn't call outsprinting Simon Clarke with long sprint "the best performance I've ever seen in cycling"

    What about Trentin? Or Alaphilippe who quite plainly had a very easy 3km prior?

    AGR is a properly difficult race, given the parcours. And he definitely was doing a lot of work whenever the cameras did cut to him in the chase.

    There's a reason everyone is saying it was a super impressive win and why saying otherwise is being contrarian.

    A more interesting argument is that he clearly needs to work on his race-craft as his legs won't always bail him out.
    Trentin had spent 30km struggling to follow Kwiatkowski and Alaphilippe failed to outsprint Fuglsang.

    It was a very good race, and it was a good win. He's clearly going to win many races. But whenever someone new comes along, the media hype goes into overdrive.

    Isn't your last sentence true in any sport, how many "next Pele's" have England produced on the back of one goal?
  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    ok so weve decided his performance was good but in a meh sort of way.

    nothing to worry about, nothing special pretty average really.
  • ocdupalaisocdupalais Posts: 3,939
    Schachmann had attacked the MVdP group at about 1.5km and was trying to bridge to Kwiatkowski. He was was then chased by Madouas and Bardet - with MVdP in 3rd wheel. Which has slightly different implications to the impression that the chasing group was a) only led by MVdP for the last 10km, or that b) MVdP was having a rest with a KM to go...

    My suspicion is that the Schachmann attack had put the rest of that MVdP group into the red (including himself) exactly at the point where they where thinking about their sprint for (at that point) 4th place - and that MVdP (and this’ll be where the cyclo cross bit comes in) was able to go again where the others only able to follow.
  • gweedsgweeds Posts: 2,369
    The reaction of current and former pros tells you all you need to know.
    Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.
  • ocdupalaisocdupalais Posts: 3,939
    The real clue to how good MVdP is can be gleaned by what the other pros/ ex-pros are saying...
    So far everything I’ve heard is the utter agreement that he’s a phenomenon.
  • ocdupalaisocdupalais Posts: 3,939
    Ha - yes, Gweeds!
  • graeme_s-2graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    As a couple of others have mentioned, to me the best bit was seeing him ignore the "rules" about when to work and when not to and win anyway. In almost all other circumstances the group he was in would not have chased down the leading duo because they'd have all been looking at each other and refusing to work. MVdP took a chance that the conventional wisdom says wouldn't pay off for him and had the legs to win anyway.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,437
    Graeme_S wrote:
    As a couple of others have mentioned, to me the best bit was seeing him ignore the "rules" about when to work and when not to and win anyway. In almost all other circumstances the group he was in would not have chased down the leading duo because they'd have all been looking at each other and refusing to work. MVdP took a chance that the conventional wisdom says wouldn't pay off for him and had the legs to win anyway.
    But we didn't actually see what was going on in that group. So some people fill in the gaps with whatever MVDP fantasy they want.
    What we do know is that the group had kept the gap steady and slowly dropping and it was a group with no sprinters and only one WT victory (excluding stages) between them. They were all motivated to keep riding for a top ten.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,167
    RichN95 wrote:
    Graeme_S wrote:
    As a couple of others have mentioned, to me the best bit was seeing him ignore the "rules" about when to work and when not to and win anyway. In almost all other circumstances the group he was in would not have chased down the leading duo because they'd have all been looking at each other and refusing to work. MVdP took a chance that the conventional wisdom says wouldn't pay off for him and had the legs to win anyway.
    But we didn't actually see what was going on in that group. So some people fill in the gaps with whatever MVDP fantasy they want.
    What we do know is that the group had kept the gap steady and slowly dropping and it was a group with no sprinters and only one WT victory (excluding stages) between them. They were all motivated to keep riding for a top ten.
    That's not right. The gap between G2 and G3 dropped very, very quickly after G3 got to 45s.

    Fast enough that I suspect crappy timings were probably involved.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,167
    https://tiz-cycling.racing/videos/amste ... ast-25-km/ from about 29:30 here - from 2km to go it drops like a stone

    From 2.1 to 1.5 it goes from 48s to 30s, and by 1.4 the junction has been made with a gap showing of 22s (VdP clearly on the front at this point). So in less than 1km the ""gap"" has more than halved.
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 18,077
    RichN95 wrote:
    Graeme_S wrote:
    As a couple of others have mentioned, to me the best bit was seeing him ignore the "rules" about when to work and when not to and win anyway. In almost all other circumstances the group he was in would not have chased down the leading duo because they'd have all been looking at each other and refusing to work. MVdP took a chance that the conventional wisdom says wouldn't pay off for him and had the legs to win anyway.
    But we didn't actually see what was going on in that group. So some people fill in the gaps with whatever MVDP fantasy they want.

    This is true. I just re-watched the last 6kms.
    Shot 1: Madouas is on the fornt, MvdP in his wheel.
    Shot 2: MvdP on the front, but Bardet comes through.
    Shot 3: All the group rotating.
    That's all we get between km 6 to km 3.
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    https://tiz-cycling.racing/videos/amstel-gold-race-2019-last-25-km/ from about 29:30 here - from 2km to go it drops like a stone

    From 2.1 to 1.5 it goes from 48s to 30s, and by 1.4 the junction has been made with a gap showing of 22s (VdP clearly on the front at this point). So in less than 1km the ""gap"" has more than halved.

    Switching here to Bob's post.
    I time checked the gaps at 3kms to go and they are correct. 36" to G2 and 55" to MvdP and co.
    From 3 and a bit km, we only see MvdP on the front, the rest in line (Mollema hanging) and the gap tumbling from kms 2.2.
    Note that Trentin was about to be caught, but Schachmann then kicked ahead. We next see him 500 metres later, on the front of the MvdP group, but he is quickly passed. So, not pulling the MvdP group in my book. Pretty much all Mvdp, but not from 7kms, or 5kms, but more like 3.5kms......as far as I can see.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,437
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    https://tiz-cycling.racing/videos/amstel-gold-race-2019-last-25-km/ from about 29:30 here - from 2km to go it drops like a stone

    From 2.1 to 1.5 it goes from 48s to 30s, and by 1.4 the junction has been made with a gap showing of 22s (VdP clearly on the front at this point). So in less than 1km the ""gap"" has more than halved.
    Bear in mind that Kwiatkowski, who had been chasing for 20+km, closed a 20s gap at the same time
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,167
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    https://tiz-cycling.racing/videos/amstel-gold-race-2019-last-25-km/ from about 29:30 here - from 2km to go it drops like a stone

    From 2.1 to 1.5 it goes from 48s to 30s, and by 1.4 the junction has been made with a gap showing of 22s (VdP clearly on the front at this point). So in less than 1km the ""gap"" has more than halved.

    Switching here to Bob's post.
    I time checked the gaps at 3kms to go and they are correct. 36" to G2 and 55" to MvdP and co.
    From 3 and a bit km, we only see MvdP on the front, the rest in line (Mollema hanging) and the gap tumbling between kms 3 and 2.
    Note that Trentin was about to be caught, but Schachmann then kicked ahead. We next see him 500 metres later, on the front of the MvdP group, but he is quickly passed. So, not pulling the MvdP group in my book. Pretty much all Mvdp, but not from 7kms, or 5kms, but more like 3.5kms......as far as I can see.

    Sure, if you have checked the gaps I'll go with that.

    Because the gap had been hovering between about ~1'10" and ~50", it was only when it started plummeting that I started wondering WTF was going on.

    If the time gap for G2 at 3km was correct at 36", and you assume it was correct when G3 caught G2 at ~22s, Alaphillippe and Fuglsang were losing time pretty quickly to G2 as well.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,167
    RichN95 wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    https://tiz-cycling.racing/videos/amstel-gold-race-2019-last-25-km/ from about 29:30 here - from 2km to go it drops like a stone

    From 2.1 to 1.5 it goes from 48s to 30s, and by 1.4 the junction has been made with a gap showing of 22s (VdP clearly on the front at this point). So in less than 1km the ""gap"" has more than halved.
    Bear in mind that Kwiatkowski, who had been chasing for 20+km, closed a 20s gap at the same time
    Yeah, but the gap did not drop slowly and steadily, most of it went within well under 1km.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 56,665 Lives Here
    Think it’s safe to say AGR time gaps are not reliable...
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,437
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    https://tiz-cycling.racing/videos/amstel-gold-race-2019-last-25-km/ from about 29:30 here - from 2km to go it drops like a stone

    From 2.1 to 1.5 it goes from 48s to 30s, and by 1.4 the junction has been made with a gap showing of 22s (VdP clearly on the front at this point). So in less than 1km the ""gap"" has more than halved.
    Bear in mind that Kwiatkowski, who had been chasing for 20+km, closed a 20s gap at the same time
    Yeah, but the gap did not drop slowly and steadily, most of it went within well under 1km.
    I meant a bit earlier on - the gap had dropped a little bit at a point at which a chase group would usually lose time to the winning group, which suggests that that group were co-operating.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,437
    Think it’s safe to say AGR time gaps are not reliable...
    How are the measured these days? It used to be done by transponders mounted on the TV motos, which made a big difference if the moto was filming from the front or behind
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 56,665 Lives Here
    I thought they still did.
    Either way, this thread illustrates the point nicely.

    https://twitter.com/Cyclocosm/status/11 ... 6379494400

    The race criss-crosses the same small area so much I imagine it can be tricky for the GPS to be that accurate.
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 18,077
    Think it’s safe to say AGR time gaps are not reliable...

    Err, I was able to check G1 and G2 at the 3km point and the gap was spot on. For G3 it was the heli shot, but pretty much right on the button, too.
    As Bob has been at pains to point out, they began to tumble at less than 1km further up the road.
    In essence 50 seconds went in a max of 1.5kms: fact.

    The other fact is that the front pair were moving really slow from 1.5kms out.

    Game over.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • joey54321joey54321 Posts: 1,297
    Couldn't they use the transponders on the bikes rather than on the Motos?
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 56,665 Lives Here
    joey54321 wrote:
    Couldn't they use the transponders on the bikes rather than on the Motos?

    Riders change bikes.
  • sherersherer Posts: 2,448
    i did stray into the asylum and it was sad that because he had won MvdP had a thread about it. I thought it was a great win and he had the momentum, where as riders in front were going so much slower. A bit like when I passed a car at the weekend, im in no way faster but that was going from 2 mph at the lights and i was going at 15 mph and went by.

    Sometimes wonder if those muppets actually watch the races properly.

    Great win and really enjoyed the end to the race. Very exciting with all the groups coming together, and the new finish really helped with this.

    Hoping tomorrow's race is just as good
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 56,665 Lives Here
    sherer wrote:

    Sometimes wonder if those muppets actually watch the races properly.

    They obviously don't.

    Any fan who cares more about the doping than the actual sport is clearly a f'cking idiot and not a fan of the sport.
  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    sherer wrote:

    Sometimes wonder if those muppets actually watch the races properly.

    They obviously don't.

    Any fan who cares more about the doping than the actual sport is clearly a f'cking idiot and not a fan of the sport.

    And some muppets believe everything they see and even re enforce their beliefs by listening only to those in support of whatever their own position is. That’s the internet. The biggest f’cki g idiots consider themselves fans, a title derived from fanatic. Nuff said.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,167
    Derived from.but not synonymous with...
  • alanparsonsalanparsons Posts: 529
    The biggest f’cki g idiot. Nuff said.

    Don't Feed The Troll.
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 18,077
    You know we are racing the northern classics, when all the really censored profiles appear.
    Fleche Wallone, no exception.

    7ab3b

    Live coverage starts at 1-30pm on Eurosport, or immediately after the Tour of the Alps stage, should it overrun.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 18,077
    Pretty windy today and already there are echelons.
    Whether there will still be in another 2 hours, when coverage starts is a different matter.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,782
    Why is Sagan riding? Guy looks like he needs a rest yet seems to be riding more than most.
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