Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    depends on how big the 28mm tyre is. A conti GP4000s tyre would be fine so would a schwalbe Pro one. A cotton tyre may not be fine long term and a IRC 28mm tyre is too small. The chart from mavic is a coverall but in truth not all 28mm tyres are the same so you you'll be fine with some but noth others.

    21mm tyres are for CX/gravel tyres really.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 1,720
    Malcolm, would you recommend your 50c carbon aero wheels for a 105kg rider? I have a set of your Borg 31 alloy wheels in 24/28 spoke pattern which have proved plenty strong enough.
  • Hi
    I have a set of DT Swiss 240 rim brake hubs from an old RR21 wheelset. Is it possible/worth rebuilding with new/different rims? I think the Spokes were DT Swiss aerolite. Apologies if this has been asked before.
    DT-Swiss-RR21-Dicut-Wheels-Details03.jpg
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    In thruth I have no idea how they would cope with a 105kg rider because your heavy enough that how you ride makes an awfully big difference.

    No the hubs are not worth reusing first problem is the hub wheels are not the same as the 350, or 240 sp hubs so your wheel builder will have to guess the spoke lengths for the new rim.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,421
    What's wrong with the old RR21s? You can probably get the re-rimmed if it is just that the rims are worn.

    As for whether the hubs are worth reusing depends on the state of them. Measuring the hub to calculate spoke lengths is hardly an insurmountable problem (especially if the wheels are currently still intact).
  • Dimpsey wrote:
    Hi
    I have a set of DT Swiss 240 rim brake hubs from an old RR21 wheelset. Is it possible/worth rebuilding with new/different rims? I think the Spokes were DT Swiss aerolite. Apologies if this has been asked before.
    DT-Swiss-RR21-Dicut-Wheels-Details03.jpg

    That was a 20/24 holes wheelset, so there are many options to replace the rims if yours are worn. Spokes might or might not need replacing, depending on whether the length is compatible.

    In the best case scenario is an easy and inexpensive re-rim job. The rims are proably DT Swiss RR 411, alternative rims that use the same spoke length could be Velocity A 23.

    Where are you based Dimpsey?
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    I read it as dimpsey has the hubs out of the wheels.

    If this is the case you have to guess the spoke lengths. If dimpsey has the wheels then you can measure the spoke length backwards calculate the fractional crossing and use that to calculate the new lengths for the new rims.

    If there is a rim with matching erd then it even simpler. So it really depends.

    Given the nature of the rr21 wheels shallow rims and low spoke count it probably is not advisable to reuse spokes. There is no way of telling how fatigued they are.

    Given they are straight pull hubs arrive spokes are best used and custom cut aero spokes or boxed DT Swiss aeorlites are not cheap. Hense my statement it probably not worth it.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    that rr21 diecut wheel is laced 1x looking at the photo, another reason why I dont thick it is worth it.

    DT swiss for the diecut wheels increase the flange spacing to increase lateral stiffness (why dont they do this for the hubs they sell through madison?) and the 1x lacing is to shortern the spoke and increase lateral stiffness again over 2x but not by much. the down side is 1x is not very good at transmitting torque so the tension changes when pedalling will be higher than with 2x lacing. They have to do this because the rim is so shallow and the spokes so thin (aerolites probably).
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • that rr21 diecut wheel is laced 1x looking at the photo, another reason why I dont thick it is worth it.

    DT swiss for the diecut wheels increase the flange spacing to increase lateral stiffness (why dont they do this for the hubs they sell through madison?) and the 1x lacing is to shortern the spoke and increase lateral stiffness again over 2x but not by much. the down side is 1x is not very good at transmitting torque so the tension changes when pedalling will be higher than with 2x lacing. They have to do this because the rim is so shallow and the spokes so thin (aerolites probably).

    A lot of blurb Malcolm... IF the guy managed to get to the end of the rims, they can't be that bad...
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    I did not say they are awlful just pointing out how DT Swiss have made to get that wheel to work. 1x lacing you have to admit is not optimal.

    Actually they made one design enhancement in the flange spacing of the rear hub.

    My guess is Dempsey could spend the coin rebuilding these wheels or spend the same may a bit more on some zondas and have a better wheel from a design point if view. That's the point I am trying to make.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • I did not say they are awlful just pointing out how DT Swiss have made to get that wheel to work. 1x lacing you have to admit is not optimal.

    Actually they made one design enhancement in the flange spacing of the rear hub.

    My guess is Dempsey could spend the coin rebuilding these wheels or spend the same may a bit more on some zondas and have a better wheel from a design point if view. That's the point I am trying to make.

    Your opinion is based on applying commercial rates... then 2 DT Swiss rims and labour will come at 200 quid and might be a bit too much.

    However, the OP could decide to build them or to have them built by a friend on a pair of A 23 rims at the total cost of 100 pounds, which makes it quite attractive, since originally these would have costed north of a monkey :wink:
  • I did not say they are awlful just pointing out how DT Swiss have made to get that wheel to work. 1x lacing you have to admit is not optimal.

    Actually they made one design enhancement in the flange spacing of the rear hub.

    My guess is Dempsey could spend the coin rebuilding these wheels or spend the same may a bit more on some zondas and have a better wheel from a design point if view. That's the point I am trying to make.

    Your opinion is based on applying commercial rates... then 2 DT Swiss rims and labour will come at 200 quid and might be a bit too much.

    However, the OP could decide to build them or to have them built by a friend on a pair of A 23 rims at the total cost of 100 pounds, which makes it quite attractive, since originally these would have costed north of a monkey :wink:

    Thanks for the replies wheel gurus!
    Ugo's last is comment what I intend to do with them. Build them up with new spokes and rims. Obviously some calculations to do...

    Would the hubs 'low' spoke count, benefit from a stiffer/deeper rim? Would a Chinese carbon rim be suitable?
    Also I assume as it would be handbuilt it would be hard to get similar tensions to the original factory wheel?
  • You are complicating your life. Ether you NEED new rims, then stick to something equivalent, so you can keep the spokes, or you don't need new rims, then stick to the wheels you've got.

    Rebuilding with new spokes is going to be expensive and the extra cost of straight pull spokes over J bend ones might well offset the benefit of having a pair of hubs already

    Also, your hubs are designed so that spokes come out at a fixed angle, you change the rim depth significantly, you end up with spokes angles not matching the rim anymore, not ideal

    If you really really have to do this thing, then use relatively shallow carbon rims, nothing deeper than 30 mm, ideally less
  • svettysvetty Posts: 1,899
    Do you still have the old rims? If so measuring the ERD should enable you to choose new rims that will work with the existing spokes.
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • carl_pcarl_p Posts: 975
    Has anyone experience good or bad of Kinetic One handbuilt wheels please? I like the idea of deeper section wheels on my Venge and these ones are alloy so possibly more robust than carbon. Initial downside appears they could be a bit weighty and the internal width is well under 20mm.

    https://www.uk.kinetic-one.com/deep-all ... s-76-c.asp
    Specialized Venge S Works
    Enigma Etape
    Genesis Flyer Single Speed


    Turn the corner, rub my eyes and hope the world will last...
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    I have had a look and one thing that stood out is the ambrosio italian hub, which are in fact novatec made in taiwan.

    As I have not seen there wheels it is hard to comment. For max aero gain though there wheels should be paired with a 23mm tyre and one that sits at 23mm in the rim. Of course you would have to care alot.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • apreadingapreading Posts: 4,532
    Asking on behalf of my son. He will be getting his dream road bike in January, an Orbea Avant Disc. He wants to get some deepish carbon wheels for it. He is quite fixed on his details - a bit too fixed in my opinion and sometimes has some strange ideas. I have steered that as best I can but now want to see what people who know stuff about wheels think of where he is at right now - he is looking for:

    dt350 or hope RS4 hub
    Must support change to 12mm or 15mm thru axle, ideally QR too but optional
    Must be centrelock to take Shimano freeza rotors
    Must take XD driver or Simano - want to buy with both drivers - his plan is to run XD but not immediately

    45mm deep carbon rim or thereabouts
    dont want a really wide rim - moderate width

    Ideally 28 spokes rear at least
    j bend spokes - doesnt mind which type, my suggestion would be D-Lite as I like them but he might prefer something bladed

    brass nipples

    He is a skinny but tall 19yr old so doesnt weigh much but is dubious about 24 spoke wheels for disc brakes.

    Will be on road only use.

    I might be able to talk him around to maybe considering Miche hubs - he thinks they are OK...

    Will probably ask Malcolm for a price when settled on spec.

    thanks in advance!
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    edited December 2018
    I have stopped using the DT Swiss hubs though. I have my own disc brake hubs now which tick all my boxes and probably yours, centrelock, thru axle compatible, lighter than 350, XD driver compatible, J bend flanges, SKF (specially made 6803 bearings) bearings that will probably out last the wheel.... DT hubs are just a pain now with end cap availablity, freehub availability. I simply cant be bothered with DT Swiss them or having to change the ring nut out to change the rear bearing. You son maybe quilty of looking a brand names above specification. The only reason to use DT Swiss is customers think they are a good hub and it helps sell a wheel sort off but since every man and his dog uses them it does not help sales at all.

    24 spoke is enough, more than enough. 28 spoke rear wheels in depth is not something common. I cant see the point in doing that.

    Also brass is only cheaper not best. Sapim alloy nipples dont seem to break if the spokes are long enbough. other brands alloy nipples are made from different alloys and frankly are shite because they break but the break mostly because the spokes are too short.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • apreadingapreading Posts: 4,532
    Is it because of the deeper rims that less spokes is OK?

    I did notice the Borg 45 but he turned his nose up at 24 spokes so I would have to be able to convince him of that. They use your own specification of the Miche Primato hubs right?

    Yes - he was having trouble finding XD drivers for the DT hubs.

    You are right about his brand snobbery - he is a teenager and this carries alot of weight with him - something I am constantly fighting. Ideally he wants Zipp wheels but I talked him out of that...!
  • apreading wrote:
    Is it because of the deeper rims that less spokes is OK?

    read

    https://whosatthewheel.com/2017/11/12/t ... -dynamics/
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    Ugo I would add its the overal wheel stiffness, lateral , radial and torsional that has a big impact onspoke life. Good spoke tension is essential so stop spoke unloading in service. Spoke count is one factor in the wheel stiffness but not the only factor. The tension changes experienced by the spokes are independent of the tension on each spoke but a function of the the load placed on the wheel and its stiffness. Obviously your explaniation is simpler.

    Hense the stiffer the wheel the lower the spoke count within reason.

    Since I dont buy 28 spoke 45mm disc brake rims because there is no point in doing so, I certainly cant build that wheel. The disc brake hubs are made by Miche but are not the primato. In fact they dont make this model of hub. They make cheaper versions without cut outs in the flanges (heavier) and cheaper bearings and a cheaper freehub. I went to town on these to make then equivelent to hope or the DT Swiss 240.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • apreadingapreading Posts: 4,532
    I take it the key bit is:
    While there is no theoretical limit to the number of spokes, the general rule is that the bigger the wheel, the higher the spoke count. [...] Bear in mind the size of the wheel that count is the internal diameter of a rim, therefore a 700c road wheel with a rim depth of 60 mm, will give the same bracing angle of a much smaller wheel and will require fewer spokes to be strong.

    Sounds reasonable - I will advise accordingly! I assume that means that while you can get hubs with higher spoke count, he would probably struggle to find deep rims with corresponding number of holes? If so thats good because I wont have to convince him - he will find the rims just arent out there.
  • apreading wrote:
    I take it the key bit is:
    While there is no theoretical limit to the number of spokes, the general rule is that the bigger the wheel, the higher the spoke count. [...] Bear in mind the size of the wheel that count is the internal diameter of a rim, therefore a 700c road wheel with a rim depth of 60 mm, will give the same bracing angle of a much smaller wheel and will require fewer spokes to be strong.

    Sounds reasonable - I will advise accordingly! I assume that means that while you can get hubs with higher spoke count, he would probably struggle to find deep rims with corresponding number of holes? If so thats good because I wont have to convince him - he will find the rims just arent out there.

    Yes... I wish they followed my logic when they fitted 28 spokes to a Brompton wheel, which probably only needs 16... they are so close that you can't even fit the pump head.... Grrrrrr :evil:
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    I have had that problem. Try building ugo it's awkward.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • AndyH01AndyH01 Posts: 616
    I'm looking for wheel upgrade ideas, I'm looking at buying a Mason Bokeh for everyday riding Inc commuting 10 miles each way mainly tarmac but off road cycle paths and towpath as well as family rides maybe a bit of cycle cross and club run, no racing.
    I' can't decide whether to stick with the Hunts 700c or order with a set of 650b for off road and winter Inc snow and ice and then get a nice set of 700c.
    I've been quoted just under £1k for DT Swiss alloy rims, 240 hubs with upgraded rachitis to 36? Teeth and x-ray spokes and alloy nipples or around £500 for the 350s.
    With the bike and accessories my remaining budget is around £600. I could get the bike without any wheels for £150 less, what would you do?
    1) order bike with 700c hunt wheels as is
    2) order bike with 650b wheels and get 700c wheels if so what?
    3) order bike with no wheels and get a decent 700c wheels, if so what?
    Any ideas be most welcome.
    Thanks Andy
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,421
    The short answer is, get them with the 700c wheels that they come with as standard. Nothing you have said you are doing will require 650c wheels (and light off roading is arguably more fun on 700c wheels and thinner tyres anyway....) where I suspect trying to ride 650 tyres on a club run will leave you struggling.

    Any half decent wheelbuilder will be able to make you up a set of wheels with a 700 or 650 rim, and for a lot less than you seem to have been quoted (eg Malcolm of the cycle clinic, or you could buy from hunt direct) - you don't need DT swiss hubs, there are numerous other cheaper and similarly reliable and good options, you definitely don't need CX-ray spokes (you aren't racing, benefits are tiny anyway).

    The best reason to get another set of wheels is so that you can have another set of tyres mounted and ready to go - so one set of wheels with road tyres, another set with your off road tyres - this tends to be much quicker to swap than swapping the tyres.

    Certainly ordering the bike without wheels is a bad idea, as the £150 saving is considerably less than a set of hunt wheels.
  • AndyH01AndyH01 Posts: 616
    My main reason for two sets is as you say save swapping tyres, which be mainly to have some ice spikes for winter snow and ice and rest of time have more aggressive off road just in case.
    I thought going 650b gives more options covers more bases, if getting an extra set of 700c rather than two lots of 700c.
    Appreciate not tax Ng but need to be quicker on the commute, currently takes from 45-55 mins on an old Carrera subway 8, need to be within 30 mins. I also think on a 3k bike, upgraded wheels could improve it.
  • Hope PRO 4 hubs... steel freehub, they are simply the best out there
  • staffostaffo Posts: 142
    I have and would recommend a set of 650b with WTB Resolute 42c and a set of 700c with schwalbe g-one speed 30c. Get the Hunts with the bike, they are decent wheels, and get another set of Hunts or something similar from a wheel builder for up to £500, no need to spend anymore in my experience.
  • AndyH01AndyH01 Posts: 616
    I think it makes more sense to go with Hunt 650b with the bike and then "summer best" 700c was looking to run on something like gp5k tubeless 32 or 35. Rather than two 700c hunt plus other.

    The question is what 700c wheelset for everyday 90% riding?
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