Spacer part of freehub or cassette?

voicycle
voicycle Posts: 95
edited December 2018 in Workshop
Done some searching but can't find an answer on here:

Have just had upgrade wheels built for my 2019 Synapse alloy 105 SE and I've found a mystery spacer whilst swapping the cassette over.

It's an R7000 series 105 cassette 11-34T and it's coming off of what I think is a Formula CX-22 hub. Going onto a Hope RS4. So an 11 speed cassette and both 11 speed hubs. But behind the cassette on the OEM wheel was a spacer looking identical to this: https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/ ... y4t724000/

Looks like an adaptor spacer for fitting lower speed cassettes to 11sp hubs so I have no idea what it was doing there. Is there a spacer like that as part of the latest 105 cassettes? Was it actually part of the Formula freehub? Was it a random extra bit of kit that didn't belong?

Cassette fits on the Hope hub both with and without the spacer. Derailleur will require less adjusting if I use the spacer. Without the spacer the chain will clear the spokes in the 34t cog but the clearance looks a lot closer than I remember from 5800 series.

Anyone fitted a new style 105 cassette recently and remember anything about a freehub spacer behind the spider?

Thanks!

UPDATE: This link: http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-CS-HG700-11-4329.pdf implies that the spacer is part of the cassette (number 13)

And this link: https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/ ... 00-11.html mentions a "Removable spacer for compatibility with MTB hub body". I'm now assuming it is part of the cassette but trying to decide whether my current application calls for fitting or removing the spacer.
Custom Albannach Torragar [BUILD IN PROGRESS]
2020 Ribble CGR SL
2019 Vitus Vitesse Evo CRS Disc

Comments

  • svetty
    svetty Posts: 1,904
    edited November 2018
    The 11-34 cassette needs the extra spacer on 11 speed freehubs but not 10 speed ones.
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    when you up the casette without the spacer is it nice and tight or is there any play?
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • voicycle
    voicycle Posts: 95
    Svetty wrote:
    The 11-34 cassette needs the extra spacer on 11 speed freehubs but not 10 speed ones.

    Thank you!
    Custom Albannach Torragar [BUILD IN PROGRESS]
    2020 Ribble CGR SL
    2019 Vitus Vitesse Evo CRS Disc
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    alexfthe wrote:
    Svetty wrote:
    The 11-34 cassette needs the extra spacer on 11 speed freehubs but not 10 speed ones.

    Thank you!

    Are you sure thats right??? R7000 is an eleven speed groupset. not a ten speed one.
  • svetty
    svetty Posts: 1,904
    edited November 2018
    dble post
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • svetty
    svetty Posts: 1,904
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Are you sure thats right??? R7000 is an eleven speed groupset. not a ten speed one.

    Yes. The 11-34 cassette is 10sp freehub compatible on both R8000 and R7000 groupsets and has it's own designation:CS-HGx00. Hence it can be used on older 10 speed wheels - unlike all other cassettes in the 11 speed groupsets - which are designated CS-Rx000.
    It means you can fit a full 11speed groupset to bikes with 10 speed wheels without needing to upgrade the wheels.
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Svetty wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Are you sure thats right??? R7000 is an eleven speed groupset. not a ten speed one.

    Yes. The 11-34 cassette is 10sp freehub compatible on both R8000 and R7000 groupsets and has it's own designation:CS-HGx00. Hence it can be used on older 10 speed wheels - unlike all other cassettes in the 11 speed groupsets - which are designated CS-Rx000.
    It means you can fit a full 11speed groupset to bikes with 10 speed wheels without needing to upgrade the wheels.

    Tasty, can i run a 105 cassette on my old DA wheels then?
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Svetty wrote:
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    Are you sure thats right??? R7000 is an eleven speed groupset. not a ten speed one.

    Yes. The 11-34 cassette is 10sp freehub compatible on both R8000 and R7000 groupsets and has it's own designation:CS-HGx00. Hence it can be used on older 10 speed wheels - unlike all other cassettes in the 11 speed groupsets - which are designated CS-Rx000.
    It means you can fit a full 11speed groupset to bikes with 10 speed wheels without needing to upgrade the wheels.

    Tasty, can i run a 105 cassette on my old DA wheels then?

    Yes, provided it's the CS-HGxxx 11-34 version.

    That's what I'm going to do if I scrape together the cash for R7000 before I've completely worn out my 10 speed wheels.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    is the spacing between the cogs the same? how does 11 go into the same space and would my DA9000 gear work with the 105 cogs? Im guessing not since the max is 28teeth.

    Even the latest DA doesnt take 34 teeth does it?
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    EDIT: Ill just stick with 11 speed hubs :)
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Spacing is the same as other 11 speed cassettes. Without the spacer on a Shimano 10 speed freehub the 34 t sprocket sits slightly inboard of the freehub. If you struggled with mech / spoke clearance running 10 speed, this might not be for you. I've read that's an issue with some Hope hubs. The OP might need his spacer after all...
  • svetty
    svetty Posts: 1,904
    keef66 wrote:
    The OP might need his spacer after all...

    He will need it as he's running an 11 speed freehub.
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • voicycle
    voicycle Posts: 95
    My issue was solved ages ago but I've been following along since and getting curious:

    Is the logic behind this product design that a 34t sprocket has a big enough radius that even on a 10sp wheel the drive side spokes are sufficiently dished in at that point to make it safe to squeeze an extra sprocket in there? But that if the low gear is any smaller than 34t then the spokes are too far outboard at that radius to make for safe clearance? I'm trying to work out why Shimano would build the 11-34 as 10sp compatible but the rest of the cassettes in the groupset aren't :?
    Custom Albannach Torragar [BUILD IN PROGRESS]
    2020 Ribble CGR SL
    2019 Vitus Vitesse Evo CRS Disc
  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,700
    alexfthe wrote:
    My issue was solved ages ago but I've been following along since and getting curious:

    Is the logic behind this product design that a 34t sprocket has a big enough radius that even on a 10sp wheel the drive side spokes are sufficiently dished in at that point to make it safe to squeeze an extra sprocket in there? But that if the low gear is any smaller than 34t then the spokes are too far outboard at that radius to make for safe clearance? I'm trying to work out why Shimano would build the 11-34 as 10sp compatible but the rest of the cassettes in the groupset aren't :?
    Yep, pretty much. It's why for MTB cassettes, with a large lowest gear, 11 and even 12 speed cassettes work with a 9/10 speed freehub body.

    On Vino's question about the old DA wheels - Shimano did do some 10 speed wheels with a freehub which is actually narrower than a normal 9/10 speed freehub, which needs one of their specific cassettes. So the freehub on your DA wheels might be too narrow even for this cassette.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    This thread is good!

    I did wonder if the size of the 34 would take the chain high enough to clear the spokes but still must be tight.

    The free hub in my wheels is the standard one not the short lived special one, I never understood why Shimano introduced that confusion.

    Of course with twelve speed round the corner and the new free hub design its going to be all change. The xtr one is very diff. I’ve been putting off getting a new bike as long as possible to be certain that discs are here to stay and let the tech mature a little. I’ve got loads of wheels and other stuff and I hate that discs would make it obsolete.

    12 speed with new free hub designs will do that anyway so I’ll probably change in 12 months time. Eek another year out, I’ve just tucked my best bike up for the winter.
  • Nick Payne
    Nick Payne Posts: 288
    Vino'sGhost wrote:
    is the spacing between the cogs the same? how does 11 go into the same space and would my DA9000 gear work with the 105 cogs? Im guessing not since the max is 28teeth.

    Even the latest DA doesnt take 34 teeth does it?
    The spacing is identical. The bracing angle of the spokes means that the further you get from the axle of the wheel, the closer the spokes are to the centreline of the bike. So as the cassette large cog gets bigger, it can be located more to the inside without the rear derailleur fouling the spokes when you're in bottom gear. So the cassettes from 34t upwards (ie the 11-34 road and 11-40, 11-42 etc MTB cassettes) are made so that the cogs overhang the inside of the freehub. So they will fit on 10s freehubs and need the spacer if you have an 11s freehub. If you get a Shimano 11-speed MTB hub, you can't fit any 11s road cassette except for the 11-34, as they have cassette bodies that are the same length as 10-speed road hubs.

    As for getting a DA RD to work with an 11-34 cassette, probably not, without using something like a Wolf Tooth Roadlink, which moves the whole RD downwards. However, my experience with trying one of those is that the shifting in the smaller cogs becomes pretty bad because of the extra distance between the top jockey pulley and the cassette cog.

    Your best bet would be to swap it for an Ultegra R8000 GS RD (rated for cassettes up to 34t). I have one of those on our tandem, and it copes with an 11-40 cassette without any problem.
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    I think the main interest for me is using wheels that are 10 speed but otherwise ok.

    I dont ride anywhere i need more than 28 teeth with a 36front but i can see how a 34 tooth rear might make some places a lot more fun and accessible for some people. and of course touring tandems and "adventure" bikes have different gearing needs.

    I'm resigned to the wheels gathering dust :( ...............
  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,700
    There is another (expensive, but cheaper than the wheels) option... An Edco Monoblock cassette with a 10 plus 11 lockring fits an 11 speed cassette to a 10 speed freehub. I've not tried it, but I've seen people who are happy with it.

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