Death by Furious cycling......

mamba80 wrote:

I find this highly offensive, this woman walked out into a road, whilst using her phone, she was the author of her own misfortune.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ing-charge

As argued in the article, this guy was doing 18mph, hardly furious cycling... if it werent so serious, you d be forgiven for checking the date.

Its a great pity the CPS isnt so judicious when it comes to drivers who deliberately drive into cyclists or kill them and them claim "SMIDSY" and get away with a small fine and 3 points.
The cyclist has been told to expect prison.

And either out early or on appeal . There is no way they can make this ancient law stick. Whole review of road laws need addressing. Not rules, guidelines but proper binding unambiguous laws.

I wasn't in court and didn't hear all the evidence. Those that were have reached a verdict.

However, if a driver with deliberately disabled brakes had seen a pedestrian in the road, not done everything they could to slow down, and hit and killed them, they would also have been in court. This is unusual, which is why it's news.

mamba80 wrote:

I find this highly offensive, this woman walked out into a road, whilst using her phone, she was the author of her own misfortune.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ing-charge

As argued in the article, this guy was doing 18mph, hardly furious cycling... if it werent so serious, you d be forgiven for checking the date.

Its a great pity the CPS isnt so judicious when it comes to drivers who deliberately drive into cyclists or kill them and them claim "SMIDSY" and get away with a small fine and 3 points.
The cyclist has been told to expect prison.

1st she wasn't on the phone he had to back track under examination. 2nd yes he was only doing 18mph but in 6.53 metres at which point he had not only seen her but shouted at her. 6.53 meters to stop is more than doable.

ps recognise most of the posts are sensible ones! No offense to you guys/gals

mamba80 wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

I find this highly offensive, this woman walked out into a road, whilst using her phone, she was the author of her own misfortune.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ing-charge

As argued in the article, this guy was doing 18mph, hardly furious cycling... if it werent so serious, you d be forgiven for checking the date.

Its a great pity the CPS isnt so judicious when it comes to drivers who deliberately drive into cyclists or kill them and them claim "SMIDSY" and get away with a small fine and 3 points.
The cyclist has been told to expect prison.

1st she wasn't on the phone he had to back track under examination. 2nd yes he was only doing 18mph but in 6.53 metres at which point he had not only seen her but shouted at her. 6.53 meters to stop is more than doable.

People who walk out into the road without checking all is clear, have only themselves to blame if they are injured, just suppose the cyclist had been killed instead? would she be in court? or would it just be a terrible accident?

its conjecture if a front brake would have prevented her death, he might not have even applied it and still tried to avoid her, a plausible maneuver.

I am not saying this man shouldnt be punished but all road users, inc pedestrians have to accept responsibility for their own actions and accept the consequences.

I rcently come back from visiting a guy with very serious injuries after a car pulled across in front of him, no further action or prosecution, he ll never cycle again.... no court case or media coverage.

If someone steps out in front of you, be you in control of a cycle, car or even if you are a pedestrian, it is incumbent on you to try to stop or avoid them.
If you can't see that, you should think carefully whether you are safe to be on the roads.

My sympathies for your injured friend, but I am assuming that the car driver concerned had not removed his brakes prior to taking to the road and thereby making an accident more likely had he?

There's already 12 pages here. Does it need another thread?

viewtopic.php?f=40012&t=13083807&start=220

I don't understand why arguments have to explore likening this to drivers of vehicles causing accidents. (Well I do, because this forum has a lot of people who can't help themselves but join in the sheeplike solidarity of cyclists forwarding their collective self-righteous agenda on road use).

Anyway ...it's a difficult thing to debate as there isn't much information to go on. I think most people will accept brakes help you stop and he didn't have them and would have had time to use them at least to some degree.

As for his attitude to it all ...well there aren't going to be many people who will think his behaviour about it is anything but that of an idiot.

I don't think anyone is excusing Alliston, who was clearly riding a bike which doesn't meet the required legal standards (and comes across as quite an arrogant and unpleasant young man who doesn't appear to have understood that he has been involved in a fatal accident).

But the law (and the media) prosecuted him in a way that would be unusual if it had been a car driver killing a cyclist. Look at Gail Purcell, for example, where Cycling UK had to mount a private crowd-funded prosecution because the Met Police couldn't be bothered.

Or the one I recall from about 10 years ago where a driver (Robert Harris) skidded on black ice, killed four cyclists and injured eight others but got just a £180 fine for having three defective tyres. Nothing at all about actually losing control and killing four people.

Just be grateful somebody without care and consideration for other users of the carriageway has faced any prosecution. A dangerous person has been removed from the road for a period of time. Be grateful for that small start and keep on hoping they'll go after all idiots on the road no matter what mode of transport they use.

PS I don't see why ppl can't see that in light of reduced resources for policing our highways any prosecution of a dangerous road user is a positive. I agree with the sentiments that more motorists need their behaviour confronting through the courts but that should never be used to oppose a court action against a cyclist that deserves prosecution.

IMHO construction and use regs are not a strong enough charge for this case. Unfortunately there is less option for the prosecution of cyclists than there is for motorists. That needs addressing IMHO. One of many things to do with keeping our highways safe for all.

I feel no sympathy with the rider, and it's a terrible shame for the woman and her family. I doubt though, that if she had stepped in front of a car that day with the same outcome, we wouldn't know about it, defective brakes or not

What could be an issue is the fallout from this.

To illustrate, I'll tell you what happened in another sport/pastime...
A few year ago I used to fly large kites, usually 3 to 5 square meters, controlled with four lines a kite. I had a 'kite buggy', a three wheel cart that is steered with the feet and you're pulled around using the kite as a sail, even though the sail is 25m off the ground.

For a time, the 90's and 2000's, they became the 'in thing', and it seemed a lot of people were doing this. There were clubs, festivals, popular forums as busy as this one etc. My sons and I used to go to parks, and take the kit on hols so we could also use the beaches. Great fun on large areas of quiet beach, Druridge Bay was favourite and we kept out of the way of people, (a requirement if you're reaching 35mph.)

In 2002 on the beach at Lytham St Annes, a woman managed to get into the path of a sand yacht whilst they were racing. This took off both her legs and broke her back, she died of the injuries. Of course, there was a massive outcry, many councils banned such activities on their beaches, seemingly almost overnight. Because a kite buggy is classed as a "Class 8 land Yacht", that included us and suddenly there were less places we could go.

Attempts a regulation came in, restrictions on times and seasons. Some sites became controlled by local clubs with their own rules, even competence tests and insurance. It got difficult. The places where I used to see 20+ kites on a Sunday afternoon, I've not seen one for years. The forums I mentioned above have a post some days, but not often.


Okay. I know it's not going to go that way for us, (I think we are too big), but we're not popular with some people, and I hope nothing comes out of this.

squired wrote:

My biggest fear is that this will help to increase general hatred for cyclists and lead to further outcry and pushing for increased regulation against cyclists.

I'm hoping that further consideration may be given to a presumed liability law in the UK (where the less vulerable road user is presumed liable unless otherwise proven) - this would of course benefit cyclists in the event of collisions with cars - but in the circumstances of the Alliston case would have given a presumed liability on the cyclist

Having presumed liability on the less vulnerable road user would surely make ALL road users think twice on how they conduct themselves

bendertherobot wrote:

Presumed liability is a civil law concept.

Indeed it is...

But given the circumstances of Alliston having a duty of care to the more vulnerable road user (relating to the lack of brakes and his general riding) - hopefully this may bring presumed liability into sharper focus

For the avoidance of doubt - I wasn't suggesting that Alliston should have been dealt with on a civil basis

Slowbike wrote:

I mentioned the lid in another thread - not as a critisism but as a thought as to whether that may have changed the nature of the impact and made it less severe. Of course we'll never know, but I just wonder that it may have lessened the blow ..

Good try! 10/10 for effort.

squired wrote:

When cycling in London I am constantly paying attention to the pavement, expecting people to step into the road without looking. On certain roads in the area of this sad accident doing that is a must.

A lot of cyclists do seem to ride as though they are the only person on the road, with little awareness of their surroundings, and if someone does step out they would expect that person to get out of the way. I can't speak for areas outside of London, but we've all seen cyclists riding at pedestrians crossing the road (often 10-20 metres away from them at the time) shouting at them to get out of the way.

My biggest fear is that this will help to increase general hatred for cyclists and lead to further outcry and pushing for increased regulation against cyclists.

One thing I did find interesting from this case was that the fact the cyclist wasn't wearing a helmet was brought up. One has to ask what relevance that had? Was it supposed to be evidence that he was reckless?

I occasionally ride in central London but I'm not a 'native'. I'm always a bit shocked at the attitude of a few cyclists per journey and recognise the behavior described above. It seems like some cyclists have the mindset that they must not be impeded and any delay is an injustice. It's the same behavior that I despise in some motorists; a selfish sense of entitlement and lack of empathy.