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Public Sector 1% Pay Rise Cap - Why Are There No Protests?

mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,757
edited July 2017 in The cake stop
If this had been imposed on the the French public sector for this long there would have been mass demonstrations and riots on the streets of Paris, Lyon, Marseille etc etc.
What is it with the British and our acceptance of taking it up the 4rse ?
I for one would join a demonstration if one was organised. Mrs Goo is NHS and like 10s / 100s of thousands of public sector workers is sick of this.
And it's not just 'go and get another job'. If they all did the country would be stuffed.
Why aren't the unions doing anything other than verbal belly aching?

Your thoughts.
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  • fenixfenix Posts: 5,437
    Did you miss this protest - http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/n ... 77596.html

    Not just public servants - but there's a big cross over.

    (also a lot of public servants probably haven't the cash to get to London - or they're working weekends)
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    Well - there has just been a general election where, by hook or by crook, the current lot are in power.

    I think referring to the French is an interesting approach as they've just written a blank cheque to En Marche (or whatever they are called) to radically reform French labour law because it's got totally out of hand.

    Personally, I've just written to my MP to tell him that I'd happily pay an extra penny in the pound for a better NHS.
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  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,962
    Erm, there has been plenty of NHS protest's in the past year or 2...not specifically for wage cap but for NHS cuts.

    But I'll be honest, I've been scratching my head a bit at the apathy that has set in re. NHS and police cuts. Especially when we've suffered a few terrorist attacks after warning from police chiefs and the NHS is on it's ar$e. Especially seeing as my wife is in the NHS and some of the things you hear.

    But this is what we voted for....
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 13,147
    My wife is a nurse. Her view is that nurses historically don't strike due to the potential consequences to patients. The younger staff have a different attitude so...
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 22,964 Lives Here
    Interesting how Boris the Hypocrite came out in the press as being in favour of scrapping the pay cap having just voted to keep it. I say interesting, I mean not even remotely surprising the self serving twunt is saying anything that he thinks will gain him popularity.
    I'd be happy to pay a bit more tax if I knew it would go to the NHS rather than buying MP's ornamental duck houses.
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    veronese68 wrote:
    I say interesting, I mean not even remotely surprising the self serving twunt is saying anything that he thinks will gain him popularity.

    I think it's as much because he sees it will put May under pressure and force her out more quickly. But self-serving I'm sure it is.
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  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 22,964 Lives Here
    And another thing. How come Queenie isn't covered by the public sector pay cap?
    I know it's calculated differently due to Crown Estates and so on, but even so...
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 22,964 Lives Here
    veronese68 wrote:
    I say interesting, I mean not even remotely surprising the self serving twunt is saying anything that he thinks will gain him popularity.

    I think it's as much because he sees it will put May under pressure and force her out more quickly. But self-serving I'm sure it is.
    Without a doubt. He has his eye on the top job and will say or do anything to get his prize. His hypocrisy needs to be shouted from the rooftops. But then, hypocrisy seems to be perfectly acceptable in politics.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 13,147
    veronese68 wrote:
    veronese68 wrote:
    I say interesting, I mean not even remotely surprising the self serving twunt is saying anything that he thinks will gain him popularity.

    I think it's as much because he sees it will put May under pressure and force her out more quickly. But self-serving I'm sure it is.
    Without a doubt. He has his eye on the top job and will say or do anything to get his prize. His hypocrisy needs to be shouted from the rooftops. But then, hypocrisy seems to be a requirement in politics.
    FTFY.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • bendertherobotbendertherobot Posts: 11,655
    veronese68 wrote:
    Interesting how Boris the Hypocrite came out in the press as being in favour of scrapping the pay cap having just voted to keep it. I say interesting, I mean not even remotely surprising the self serving twunt is saying anything that he thinks will gain him popularity.
    I'd be happy to pay a bit more tax if I knew it would go to the NHS rather than buying MP's ornamental duck houses.

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  • capt_slogcapt_slog Posts: 3,397
    Well - there has just been a general election where, by hook or by crook, the current lot are in power.

    I think referring to the French is an interesting approach as they've just written a blank cheque to En Marche (or whatever they are called) to radically reform French labour law because it's got totally out of hand.

    Personally, I've just written to my MP to tell him that I'd happily pay an extra penny in the pound for a better NHS.

    So would I.

    Cutting taxes seems to be the assumption for most politicians, I wonder if they actually ask people which they would rather have, a extra few pounds a month or an economy that works well?

    BTW I remember well what it's like to be looking for the extra few pounds a month, and I know it's not that simple. Then again, what some consider as essentials these days were luxuries to me at that time.


    The older I get, the better I was.

  • Well - there has just been a general election where, by hook or by crook, the current lot are in power.

    I think referring to the French is an interesting approach as they've just written a blank cheque to En Marche (or whatever they are called) to radically reform French labour law because it's got totally out of hand.

    Personally, I've just written to my MP to tell him that I'd happily pay an extra penny in the pound for a better NHS.

    I would prefer the focus to be put removing excess from inside the NHS and I'd start with the number of managers and admin staff
    The number of managers and senior managers in 2014 was 37,078

    That feels like a top heavy organisation to me.
    50.6 per cent of NHS employees are professionally qualified clinical staff. A further 26.0 per cent provide support to clinical staff in roles such as nursing assistant practitioners, nursing assistant/auxiliaries and healthcare assistants.

    1.388 million staff employed by the NHS in 2014

    325,000(23.4%) of the staff are back office, almost a quarter of all employees and these staff will need managers and senior management. A lot of excess here that will not be removed while we throw more money at it
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  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,962
    Coopster, what has that got to do with a 1% wage cap?

    I'm not saying your wrong, and that there is wastage in the system. But why hold that against the healthcare workers and nurses who are running around blue censored flies?
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    Well - there has just been a general election where, by hook or by crook, the current lot are in power.

    I think referring to the French is an interesting approach as they've just written a blank cheque to En Marche (or whatever they are called) to radically reform French labour law because it's got totally out of hand.

    Personally, I've just written to my MP to tell him that I'd happily pay an extra penny in the pound for a better NHS.

    I would prefer the focus to be put removing excess from inside the NHS and I'd start with the number of managers and admin staff
    The number of managers and senior managers in 2014 was 37,078

    That feels like a top heavy organisation to me.
    50.6 per cent of NHS employees are professionally qualified clinical staff. A further 26.0 per cent provide support to clinical staff in roles such as nursing assistant practitioners, nursing assistant/auxiliaries and healthcare assistants.

    1.388 million staff employed by the NHS in 2014

    325,000(23.4%) of the staff are back office, almost a quarter of all employees and these staff will need managers and senior management. A lot of excess here that will not be removed while we throw more money at it

    Is that first-hand/expert observation or are you just drawing conclusions from numbers?

    I've spent pretty much every day of the last 6 months (and I mean every day) in the system and what I see is a turnover of qualified staff and a lack of money to do infrastructure maintenance properly (it's done cheap so it'll need doing again soon). I see very little evidence of there being "too much" management. At least half the staff are not from the UK which is going to present some interesting challenges when we "take back control" of our borders.
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  • graeme_s-2graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    325,000(23.4%) of the staff are back office, almost a quarter of all employees and these staff will need managers and senior management. A lot of excess here that will not be removed while we throw more money at it
    What activities that those people do would you like the NHS to stop doing?

    My experience of speaking to healthcare professionals (including my wife) is that they still spend vast amounts of their time (often their own, unpaid, spare time) doing administrative and clerical work because there isn't anybody else to do it.

    Somewhere like a large University would probably be about 2/3rds administration and a 1/3 research/teaching staff.

    I'm not sure how you would arrive at the "correct" figure for an administration for an organisation the size of the NHS. It's also worth noting that continually reorganising the structure and services will inevitably require more administrative work.

    In global comparisons the NHS generally comes out as giving very competitive value for money, which would suggest that the size of the administration probably isn't particularly bloated.
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    I'd agree with Graeme_s - the most senior nurse on the ward does almost no nursing.
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  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,962
    I used to bimble along happily in the "knowledge" that the NHS was brilliant, until I met my wife who is a nurse. I didn't realise just how short handed they were, and since we've been together it's only gotten worse.

    In her last ward, operations would regularly take place without the required numbers of staff and healthcare workers were expected to perform the role of a scrub nurse without the required qualifications. If something had gone wrong, the sh*t would have hit the fan big time.

    Moral was so low that staff couldn't leave the ward fast enough, and seemingly little effort made to replace them. She managed to move to another ward, where she is loads happier now, but still expected to perform minor miracles whilst 25 weeks pregnant.

    All the above with a cap of 1% wage rises.

    I think it's already going this way, but if we aren't too careful the whole thing will be privatised before long.
  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,962
    dinyull wrote:
    I used to bimble along happily in the "knowledge" that the NHS was brilliant, until I met my wife who is a nurse. I didn't realise just how short handed they were, and since we've been together it's only gotten worse.

    In her last ward, operations would regularly take place without the required numbers of staff and healthcare workers were expected to perform the role of a scrub nurse without the required qualifications. If something had gone wrong, the sh*t would have hit the fan big time.

    Moral was so low that staff couldn't leave the ward fast enough, and seemingly little effort made to replace them. She managed to move to another ward, where she is loads happier now, but still expected to perform minor miracles whilst 25 weeks pregnant.

    All the above with a cap of 1% wage rises.

    I think it's already going this way, but if we aren't too careful the whole thing will be privatised before long.

    The thing that worries me most about all of my above post, she works in one of the best performing trusts in the country...
  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,962
    Also, it shouldn't be the staff having to protest, it should be the people (ie us) who use and rely on it who are up in arms and protesting about it.

    It's a f*cking disgrace....but like I said above, it was voted for.
  • graeme_s-2graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    dinyull wrote:
    Moral was so low that staff couldn't leave the ward fast enough, and seemingly little effort made to replace them. She managed to move to another ward, where she is loads happier now, but still expected to perform minor miracles whilst 25 weeks pregnant.
    I think this is very dependant on individual managers, but my wife's support while pregnant was frankly disgusting, and in some cases in breach of employment and health and safety regulations.

    Where I work if someone's off on maternity leave then somebody will be employed on a fixed term basis to cover that leave (in fact that's how I got my first job here a long time ago). In my wife's hospital that never happens, everyone else just has to make do until the person returns from maternity leave.
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    Every employer has issues I'd say the morale, in general, on this ward is great. But we've now lost both ward doctors (Spanish and American) so the nurses are really stretched and have to make loads of phone calls to get approvals. Quality of care has taken a commensurate drop. We're due to get one new doctor (Italian) in a few weeks.
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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,249
    Well - there has just been a general election where, by hook or by crook, the current lot are in power.

    I think referring to the French is an interesting approach as they've just written a blank cheque to En Marche (or whatever they are called) to radically reform French labour law because it's got totally out of hand.

    Personally, I've just written to my MP to tell him that I'd happily pay an extra penny in the pound for a better NHS.

    I would prefer the focus to be put removing excess from inside the NHS and I'd start with the number of managers and admin staff
    The number of managers and senior managers in 2014 was 37,078

    That feels like a top heavy organisation to me.
    50.6 per cent of NHS employees are professionally qualified clinical staff. A further 26.0 per cent provide support to clinical staff in roles such as nursing assistant practitioners, nursing assistant/auxiliaries and healthcare assistants.

    1.388 million staff employed by the NHS in 2014

    325,000(23.4%) of the staff are back office, almost a quarter of all employees and these staff will need managers and senior management. A lot of excess here that will not be removed while we throw more money at it

    2.7% of staff as management feels like a top heavy organisation? I've no idea what the 'right' figure should be, but that seems a bit of a stretch to say that's too high a proportion. I'd also imagine that the 23% of non-clinical staff includes cleaners, porters and catering. I would expect the NHS to have a relatively high proportion of support staff. As I say, I don't know what the right proportion is, but I'd want something more than gut feeling to go on. What are the proportions in other health systems?
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  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,962
    Graeme_S wrote:
    dinyull wrote:
    Moral was so low that staff couldn't leave the ward fast enough, and seemingly little effort made to replace them. She managed to move to another ward, where she is loads happier now, but still expected to perform minor miracles whilst 25 weeks pregnant.
    I think this is very dependant on individual managers, but my wife's support while pregnant was frankly disgusting, and in some cases in breach of employment and health and safety regulations.

    Where I work if someone's off on maternity leave then somebody will be employed on a fixed term basis to cover that leave (in fact that's how I got my first job here a long time ago). In my wife's hospital that never happens, everyone else just has to make do until the person returns from maternity leave.

    I think she's made to suffer at the minute because she's so good. The consultant's request that she does their rounds....but they always overbook them knowing she'll get it done. Only she needs to slow down and despite telling the Sister she needs to slow down, the Sister doesn't want to tell the consultant's incase they take the hump.

    So she'll be made to suffer...or the patients will be made to suffer.

    Needless to say she's counting down the 7 weeks she has left before maternity leave.
  • thistle_(mbnw)thistle_(mbnw) Posts: 4,062
    Not all NHS staff are having their pay capped at 1% - some still get pay rises as they train and move up pay grades - until they get as far as they can in the job.

    A 1% cap on pay rises for someone earning £200k+ a year doesn't seem that unreasonable to me, 1% pay rise cap for someone near minimum wage seems a bit harsh but I guess they have to apply the same to everyone.
  • ProssPross Posts: 24,265
    I felt the cap was necessary back in 2010, many in private sector were losing their jobs and taking pay cuts of 10 - 20% so it seemed unfair that their taxes should contribute to public sector pay rises. However, it has gone beyond the tipping point now. I would suggest it needs a year or two of rises just above inflation and then any cap should be at inflation to keep earnings in line with cost of living. If it requires an increase in income tax to do this then so be it, that said Hammond tried to increase tax on the self-employed and got forced into a U turn by the media.
  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,962
    Not all NHS staff are having their pay capped at 1% - some still get pay rises as they train and move up pay grades - until they get as far as they can in the job.

    Whilst that is correct, it's also wrong.

    The whole NHS works in band of pay:

    https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-p ... es-2016-17

    So if you train, either on the job or at uni etc, moving up a band will mean a change in job title. So yes, pay increases but it's not a pay rise per se as you actually changing role.
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 11,450
    rather than a blanket 1% why not increase wages for roles in which they are struggling to recruit?

    People consistently vote for no tax increases so there needs to be a grown up conversation about what else will be cut to pay for any increase.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 12,019
    rather than a blanket 1% why not increase wages for roles in which they are struggling to recruit?

    People consistently vote for no tax increases so there needs to be a grown up conversation about what else will be cut to pay for any increase.

    People consistently vote for no tax increases for people in their personal situation. Other people can pay more.
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    People consistently vote for no tax increases so there needs to be a grown up conversation about what else will be cut to pay for any increase.

    I don't know if that statement is true. It's not an a la carte menu for policies but a set menu. If you like everything but the "crispy duck" you don't get to choose. What we need to do (to stretch the anology horribly) is persuade them to offer more of a flexible menu and not assume, because we like some things, we like everything.
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  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 22,964 Lives Here
    dinyull wrote:
    Also, it shouldn't be the staff having to protest, it should be the people (ie us) who use and rely on it who are up in arms and protesting about it.

    It's a f*cking disgrace....but like I said above, it was voted for.
    The problem is some have been telling us the NHS is overstretched because of the number of immigrants using it and stretching it to breaking point. Funny how there's no mention of the numbers working in the NHS. I've heard lots of people moaning about the number of foreigners blocking up the NHS, there was someone on here that used to moan about that a lot. People have been protesting the wrong thing steered by those with an agenda.
    What was it that was written on the side of that bus? Absolutely disgraceful to peddle such lies, yet the morons fell for it. Even after the leading Leave campaigners have said it was wrong it still gets brought up by those trying to justify their vote.
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