Mechanical Doping update

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  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,655
    Another thread on mechanical doping? I don't see what this article brings to the arguement to be honest.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 19,292
    It shows that Joel's mystical Hungarian Genius is making the same motors we ve seen for years rather than the magical, tiny, invisible to the human eye ones...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,553
    I've come to the conclusion that the cycling media really really want this to be a big story so they are going make it one irrespective of facts. Have a listen to Friebe's comments at the end the friend's podcast for example.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • wombly_kneeswombly_knees Posts: 657
    I don't think there's much to it. But even if this technology is epidemic, testing for it is hardly new. This from one of the current favourites in 2011
    https://twitter.com/chrisfroome/status/107870833426436097
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    For the prosecution

    Lemond has ridden one.
    Cookson clearly thinks there is something to it.
    So do the newspapers.
    The technology is there.
    Cyclists have occasionally resorted to ever-so-slightly bending the rules.
    It doesn't have to produce anywhere near as much power in the pro peloton as the one this Telegraph report is about
    The figure for the pro version was £150k
    There is very suspicious video footage of numerous odd instances including Ryder, Cancellara, Cancellara again

    For the defence

    Rich said no one has patented it so it can't possibly exist
    My men 2019: Superman Lopez, Gaviria, Henao, Teuns, Tejay, Gaudu, Cosnefroy, Evenepoel, Pidcock.
  • NorvernRobNorvernRob Posts: 1,448
    For the prosecution

    Lemond has ridden one.
    Cookson clearly thinks there is something to it.
    So do the newspapers.
    The technology is there.
    Cyclists have occasionally resorted to ever-so-slightly bending the rules.
    It doesn't have to produce anywhere near as much power in the pro peloton as the one this Telegraph report is about
    The figure for the pro version was £150k
    There is very suspicious video footage of numerous odd instances including Ryder, Cancellara, Cancellara again

    For the defence

    Rich said no one has patented it so it can't possibly exist

    There are no pictures of a bike fitted with a completely hidden motor. Nobody appears to have seen one. If the technology is there, you must know about it, so please enlighten us with details and photos.
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    For the prosecution

    Lemond has ridden one.
    Cookson clearly thinks there is something to it.
    So do the newspapers.
    The technology is there.
    Cyclists have occasionally resorted to ever-so-slightly bending the rules.
    It doesn't have to produce anywhere near as much power in the pro peloton as the one this Telegraph report is about
    The figure for the pro version was £150k
    There is very suspicious video footage of numerous odd instances including Ryder, Cancellara, Cancellara again

    For the defence

    Rich said no one has patented it so it can't possibly exist

    There are no pictures of a bike fitted with a completely hidden motor. Nobody appears to have seen one. If the technology is there, you must know about it, so please enlighten us with details and photos.

    Have a look at these.

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=world+smallest+electric+motor&espv=2&biw=1499&bih=929&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=WX-VVaPVD6GR7AaA-4KIAw&ved=0CCsQsAQ#tbm=isch&q=world%27s+smallest+electric+motor

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=world+smallest+electric+motor&espv=2&biw=1499&bih=929&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=WX-VVaPVD6GR7AaA-4KIAw&ved=0CCsQsAQ#tbm=isch&q=world%27s+smallest+battery

    Are you telling me that with enough money then something couldn't be concocted to fit somewhere hidden in a bike that gives a rider a small boost of a few watts for a period of time?
    My men 2019: Superman Lopez, Gaviria, Henao, Teuns, Tejay, Gaudu, Cosnefroy, Evenepoel, Pidcock.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,553
    Oh bless you Joel. You do try so hard.

    This is the Hitler Diaries of the cycling media.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    The technology is clearly there. We aren't talking about a £1,000 bike with huge rechargeable powerpack here.

    One of these costs $35. Just imagine what you could do for £50k.

    http://www.cnet.com/uk/news/the-wallet-drone-drone-is-so-small-you-can-take-it-anywhere/
    My men 2019: Superman Lopez, Gaviria, Henao, Teuns, Tejay, Gaudu, Cosnefroy, Evenepoel, Pidcock.
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    My men 2019: Superman Lopez, Gaviria, Henao, Teuns, Tejay, Gaudu, Cosnefroy, Evenepoel, Pidcock.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,799 Lives Here
    Best bike change in a road race I've ever seen.

    Incredible.
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,765
    For the prosecution

    The figure for the pro version was £150k

    I remember reading thing one and it baffles me. So someone is good enough to have a spare 150K lying around. Which means they win a lot and are paid very well. So they go and buy some secret technology so they can win races they're already winning

    I can't make sense of how that would work.

    Sure, there is good motor technology but all of them weigh 1.5 kilo's and have a huge battery. If there is secret battery technology for these things then Elon Musk or Apple would pay a lot more than some cyclist for it.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • adr82adr82 Posts: 4,002
    Joel, do you genuinely not understand that you cannot look at the size of the motor in isolation from the power it can produce? Or the size of a battery in isolation from the capacity it has? I'm asking because you seem to think you're proving something by linking to a Google image search for "world's smallest motor/battery"...

    Yes, there are motors that can produce significant power that might help a pro cyclist, as shown in the article. And yes, there are motors that are extremely small. What is not feasible with current technology is a motor that is capable of providing that level of power while managing to stay extremely small and capable of running off a similarly tiny battery.

    There really isn't any room for contention here: if these things existed they would revolutionize all kinds of industrial processes almost overnight! The motors would find widespread use replacing bulkier, heavier, noisier, less efficient and more expensive models, while the possibilities for tiny batteries with huge capacities are obvious for smartphone and laptop manufacturing. And that's just scratching the surface of what you could do with them. The idea that someone has developed a motor+battery system like you claim, and has subsequently decided that the best means of recouping their money from what must have been an extremely expensive development process is to keep it secret from the general public in order to hawk it to a tiny population of pro cyclists for tens of thousands of pounds a go is just ludicrous.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,553
    The best bike for riding on tarmac is not the best bike for riding on cobbles. So why not change? They do it in time trials if there's different terrain.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,655
    If you crack open the battery on a Bosch electric set up you'll basically find 30 odd AA type batteries and these will get you, say, 60k. Thing is if you use just one of those you can't go 2k, batteries don't work like that.
    I've never seen a credible hidden battery pack though you could image a Gruber assist and down tube full of batteries. Not in the pro peloton though.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 7,719
    For the prosecution

    The figure for the pro version was £150k

    I remember reading thing one and it baffles me. So someone is good enough to have a spare 150K lying around. Which means they win a lot and are paid very well. So they go and buy some secret technology so they can win races they're already winning

    I can't make sense of how that would work.

    Sure, there is good motor technology but all of them weigh 1.5 kilo's and have a huge battery. If there is secret battery technology for these things then Elon Musk or Apple would pay a lot more than some cyclist for it.

    That's really it for me, if this amazing technology did exist it would be patented and someone would be filthy stinking rich off it, not flogging it at £150k a pop to a small number of pro cyclists, it just doesn't stand to reason. Not even a little bit. I'm sure cheating in a variety of ways is still rife in pro cycling but people who still think this is credible must be wilfully deluding themselves.

    If the technology did exist already then I'm sure some unscrupulous people would be trying to use them in bike races. But we'd know the technology existed, it would be commonplace (and someone like Elon Musk would be sitting on a tower of money the size of the Burj Khalifa).
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 13,543
    "ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED? IS THIS NOT WHY YOU ARE HERE?"
  • awaveyawavey Posts: 2,145
    That's really it for me, if this amazing technology did exist it would be patented and someone would be filthy stinking rich off it, not flogging it at £150k a pop to a small number of pro cyclists, it just doesn't stand to reason. Not even a little bit. I'm sure cheating in a variety of ways is still rife in pro cycling but people who still think this is credible must be wilfully deluding themselves.

    If the technology did exist already then I'm sure some unscrupulous people would be trying to use them in bike races. But we'd know the technology existed, it would be commonplace (and someone like Elon Musk would be sitting on a tower of money the size of the Burj Khalifa).

    exactly this, if youd made technology that could do this at the scale they are talking about would be necessary to go undetected in the pro peleton, no-ones doubting its technically possible to fit a motor and battery to a bicycle and produce watts of help, you wouldnt be keeping it secret and selling the odd one to a pro cycling team.

    did anyone see that Formula E thing from Battersea Park at the weekend, those motor manufacturers are spending tens of millions of pounds trying to develop exactly this kind of stuff, when all they needed to do was hang out at the Tour de France instead. :roll:

    I have a hard time ever believing the stuff written by Tom Cary on any subject. but there you go nice ad for Typhoon wasnt it.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,553
    I have a hard time ever believing the stuff written by Tom Cary on any subject. but there you go nice ad for Typhoon wasnt it.
    This whole Motorised Doping thing is starting to seem like a giant viral marketing scam on behalf of Typhoon.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    Honestly, you lot are just weird.
    My men 2019: Superman Lopez, Gaviria, Henao, Teuns, Tejay, Gaudu, Cosnefroy, Evenepoel, Pidcock.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,799 Lives Here
    You're the one who likes Kirby....!
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    You're the one who likes Kirby....!

    That's because he microdoses laughing gas during the commercials.
    My men 2019: Superman Lopez, Gaviria, Henao, Teuns, Tejay, Gaudu, Cosnefroy, Evenepoel, Pidcock.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,635
    Honestly, you lot are just weird.

    ??!! is that a genuine reaction to the quite basic logic people have posted?

    I wouldn't rule out that one day in some cycle race that someone somewhere will cheat and get caught for mechanical doping when the tech has developed for a few years, but come on. Your default position on doping is so obvious but use your noggin a bit to balance it a little.
  • smithy21smithy21 Posts: 2,197
    You really are a bit thick Joel. People generally tolerate you because you are not too offensive. A sort of sub-clinic catch all. You can't prove anyone is doping/cheating but if you throw enough stuff out there then one day you will be right.
  • disgruntledgoatdisgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Leaving aside the arguments already debunking this, why would anyt cyclist spaff 150k on this when, according to Joel, he could microdose his way to success for a tenth of the price and no chance of getting caught? Doesn't make a lick of sense.

    Joel, if you're convinced the entire sport is completely rotten, and as I've never seen you post anything positive about anything that's the conclusion I've reached, why do you bother with it?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 7,719
    Honestly, you lot are just weird.

    Yes, so strange with all our logical thinking.
  • adr82adr82 Posts: 4,002
    Leaving aside the arguments already debunking this, why would anyt cyclist spaff 150k on this when, according to Joel, he could microdose his way to success for a tenth of the price and no chance of getting caught? Doesn't make a lick of sense.
    I assume it makes sense if, as Joel apparently does, you start from the assumption that every pro cyclist is some sort of cartoon supervillain out to get any advantage they possibly can, no matter what the price or risk.
  • sherersherer Posts: 2,329
    so just to recap on this.

    No one has ever seen a hidden motor
    There's no evidence these exist anywhere
    Joel still things they are in use.

    Have I missed anything ? :D
  • Ai_1Ai_1 Posts: 3,060
    I used to design and fly remote control airplanes. I was involved at the start of really practical high performance electrical power systems, which have since become mainstream. It is trivial to get hold of pretty small motors and cells that can produce significant amounts of power for short periods of time. For example I have motors weighing 10g that could produce 30W+ for minutes powered by a battery of lithium cells with a weight of 25g. That's probably not enough to make a useful difference. Lets say 100W is enough to help you launch an attack? Well I reckon you could produce 100W output on a motor weighing 50g. But efficiency is going to be poor so you probably need to pump 150W+ into it. If it only needs to last 30 seconds then the cells can be pretty small too. In fact you might even be able to get away with capacitors. The big problems with such small motors producing high power is efficiency, heat and reliability. Enclosed in a frame without a good cooling airflow and hidden so that use of a heatsink would be pretty tricky, I can't see it being possible to run such a motor for long... 10 seconds could be a challenge.
    So, yes, you can make a power assist that would weigh much less than these commercial high power, high duration, high reliability models. But they're still going to be big enough to be easy enough to detect IF you're looking. I think it's necessary for the UCI to check bikes. I doubt anyone is using motor assistance and I don't think there's any need for all the paranoia and nonsense some people seem to be attempting to stir up.
    For the prosecution

    Lemond has ridden one.
    Cookson clearly thinks there is something to it.
    So do the newspapers.
    The technology is there.
    Cyclists have occasionally resorted to ever-so-slightly bending the rules.
    It doesn't have to produce anywhere near as much power in the pro peloton as the one this Telegraph report is about
    The figure for the pro version was £150k
    There is very suspicious video footage of numerous odd instances including Ryder, Cancellara, Cancellara again

    For the defence

    Rich said no one has patented it so it can't possibly exist
    Those videos are only really suspicious if you start off suspicious and are looking for something to make claims about. There's nothing bizarre or inexplicable there. It's as bad as the "moon landings are fake" guys going on about shadows on the moon etc. The only reason they find these things inexplicable is because of their own ignorance and their wish to find a conspiracy. Easy, logical explanations abound.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 7,719
    For example I have motors weighing 10g that could produce 30W+ for minutes powered by a battery of lithium cells with a weight of 25g. That's probably not enough to make a useful difference. Lets say 100W is enough to help you launch an attack? Well I reckon you could produce 100W output on a motor weighing 50g. But efficiency is going to be poor so you probably need to pump 150W+ into it. If it only needs to last 30 seconds then the cells can be pretty small too. In fact you might even be able to get away with capacitors. The big problems with such small motors producing high power is efficiency, heat and reliability. Enclosed in a frame without a good cooling airflow and hidden so that use of a heatsink would be pretty tricky, I can't see it being possible to run such a motor for long... 10 seconds could be a challenge.
    So, yes, you can make a power assist that would weigh much less than these commercial high power, high duration, high reliability models. But they're still going to be big enough to be easy enough to detect IF you're looking. I think it's necessary for the UCI to check bikes. I doubt anyone is using motor assistance and I don't think there's any need for all the paranoia and nonsense some people seem to be attempting to stir up.

    I agree, I don't think anyone on here doubts that there currently exist motors that are small and powerful enough to make a difference in a race, however there is still no evidence of motors that couldn't be detected by even a fairly cursory check (and I agree that they should be doing checks). One article on the other thread mentioned motors that couldn't even be detected by x-raying the bike which is clearly into the realms of science fiction.

    Given everything else that's happened I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that some riders have either used or experimented with using motors in the past when maybe they weren't being regularly checked for.

    But the idea that there is some sort of super technology that is near impossible to detect and the only practical use anyone can find is to allow pro cyclists to cheat is just not plausible or credible.
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