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bluetooth sensors

fuzzdogfuzzdog Posts: 190
edited February 2015 in Workshop
I've got an Elite turbo muin turbo trainer. And recently purchased the recommended speed and cadence sensor (Elite (Echowell) smart bluetooth 20cm cable speed and cadence) to be able to use the My training app or several others however I can not for the life of me get this sensor to be recognised by my phone or my tablet. They are both supposed to be compatible with this sensor. I have a samsung S4mini with os 4.4.2 and a nexus 7 with up to date os so they should both be fine.
I've studied the instructions for fitting to the bike in case of using the muin and also tried just waking the sensor with a wheel magnet. No luck. I have run through all the procedures for setting it up. restarting the phone, closing apps, etc. I'm wasting valuable training time doing this.
I have managed to connect a wahoo tickr HRM to the wahoo app but not to the Elite app.
Any ideas?
The battery is fine. It works in the HRM. But there doesn't seem to be any way to see if the Speed sensors are actually working and the instructions that elite supply ( and on line ) are only for ant+ sensors despite the app being compatible with bluetooth.

Posts

  • am7am7 Posts: 59
    If you swipe the magnet just shy of the sensor can you hear the clicking each time it passes if you put you ear close enough?
    I have a wahoo speed sensor that clicks if you do this, I also have a wahoo app (wahoo utility) that you can use to check if the sensors connect or not.
    Last I do not want to sound stupid but are you sure you do not have the ant+ sensors by mistake?
  • fuzzdogfuzzdog Posts: 190
    Hello
    Yes. I did the same and I can also here the click. I also have the wahoo utility app as well and although my tickr comes up the Speed and cadence sensor does not.
    It is bluetooth. It's written on the side. Smart bluetooth.
    The only thing I wonder about is that on the Bike Discount site where I bought it it is pictured as an Elite branded sensor but the one I received id branded as Echowell. I think they are the same. they look the same other than that. but it should still work anyway right?
  • wongataawongataa Posts: 916
    If the sensor is Bluetooth Smart then your phone/tablet need to support Bluetooth Smart. The Nexus 7 does not do Bluetooth Smart. I suspect the S4 mini does not either.

    Bluetooth Smart is a subset of the Bluetooth 4 specs. A device can support Bluetooth 4 but not the Smart bit. A device that is not Bluetooth 4 capable can't support Bluetooth Smart.
  • fuzzdogfuzzdog Posts: 190
    Hello
    According to this list and a couple of others. Both are bluetooth smart compatible.
    http://www.bluetooth.com/Pages/Bluetoot ... -List.aspx
    If I am missing something please do tell me. I'm not trying to be clever. I obviously know little about the subject. But they appear to be on this list as smart ready. I just want to get it working.
  • am7am7 Posts: 59
    The above poster is correct, a quick google search suggests the hardware in the nexus/s4 mini although capable the software is not (at all or depending on version). My suggestion is to pair with an iPhone 4s and above to put your mind to rest. I doubt there is a problem with the sensors but you never know.
  • fuzzdogfuzzdog Posts: 190
    okay. But blimey. Do you really have to have either an i phone or something so new to use any of this stuff. if so then it really isn't made anywhere near clear enough to people that that is the case. I'm no fool, I've done a lot of checking before buying the Muin and the sensors. Obviously not enough but I no most people wouldn't wouldn't do as much checking as me and if ( like me ) they saw the list I posted would assume their devices were okay.
    Can you tell me why my HRM works then.
    And any others solutions apart from buying new phones or tablet, neither of which I am prepared to do.
  • am7am7 Posts: 59
    I was not suggesting to buy an iPhone. You have two variables, android phones and sensor. Finding someone who has the same sensor -> extremely unlikely. Finding someone who has an iPhone -> very likely. So it is easier to test. Also I doubt the sensor is at fault but it is still a probability even if the tiniest which is why you still need to test. When you test we can move from there. I am sure at least one of your phones has to work with the sensor using the correct software but you must be 100% sure the sensor works first.
    Regarding the muin you did your research and selected correctly (nothing to do with the fact I have one;) - did not buy the sensors though. I have cadence/hr readings from my wahoo cadence sensor and polar h7 strap.
  • wongataawongataa Posts: 916
    If your phone/tablet are definitely compatible then the issue may be that the phone/tablet may not allow enough Bluetooth connections to see all the sensors. I vaguely remember reading once that there can be a limit of only one smart device pairing with a phone/tablet at once. Try making sure that you are only trying to pair the sensors to one device at once.
  • fuzzdogfuzzdog Posts: 190
    Okay. Thanks for that both.
    Sorry if I sounded a bit cross before. I am a bit cross but not with you.
    I will test it with my friends iphone on Thursday and see how that goes.

    One other thing. I found out that my Samsung has Bluetooth 4. I dont know if that's the same as smart bluetooth but on the box for the sensor it says its compatible with bluetooth 4.
  • shmoostershmooster Posts: 355
    fuzzdog wrote:
    Okay. Thanks for that both.
    Sorry if I sounded a bit cross before. I am a bit cross but not with you.
    I will test it with my friends iphone on Thursday and see how that goes.

    One other thing. I found out that my Samsung has Bluetooth 4. I dont know if that's the same as smart bluetooth but on the box for the sensor it says its compatible with bluetooth 4.

    Yes, Bluetooth smart = bluetooth 4
  • Hi,

    concerning the sensor which doesn't work, pay attention to fix the speed sensor on the right location, and please follow this below image ( 34 mm from the outer edge )

    zf4aEkh0

    The pairing procedure must be do when you are pedaling, and the app is running.
    ( don't search the sensor with the Bluetooth settings panel , it isn't the right way to detected it )

    Check also the sensor battery charge
  • fuzzdogfuzzdog Posts: 190
    Okay. Thanks I will give it another try.
    I have done more or less what you suggest I think. rotating the pedals with the speed sensor in various positions within a cm or so of the place you are saying. Trying different positions. I assume it doesn't matter which way round the sensor is as long as that little arrow is as close as possible to the internal magnet?
    I'm pretty sure the battery is okay. I tried the one supplied and also the one out of my HRM as well because I knew that worked.
    I haven't been able to try it with an i phone yet as the person I know who has one is far more technophobic than me and can't work out how to download the app.
    A will try again this evening.
    Thanks
  • fuzzdogfuzzdog Posts: 190
    Hello Edoardo.
    I've just spent an hour trying this out. I measured the gap for the magnet. Tried it a few mm's either way, different batteries, different apps. My E training, wahoo fitness, Wahoo utility, Strava. Still no joy.
    In my E training app I tried the connect sensors tab. I didn't do the normal bluetooth pairing .
    I can only assume the sensors don't work. Or the phone isn't compatible. Although it works fine with my Wahoo Tickr HRM.
    Maybe there is no magnet in the Muin? However I've tried swipping a magnet across the sensor and that doesn't work either.
    What do you think? Time to send them back?
  • term1teterm1te Posts: 1,462
    I've had the same problem, Turbo Muin, Elite Misuro blue sensor and pre 2013 Nexus 7. Just couldn't get the Elite My etraining app to connect to the sensor. Before I bought the sensor I checked that it was compatible with the Nexus 7, and everything suggested it was. However, now I've got it, further research shows that it is only compatible with post 2013 Nexus 7s, and that the first generation doesn't have the correct hardware, or that it is not turned on in the first generation.

    My wife's ipad v.2 didn't work either, you need v.3 and above.

    I tried my daughter's ipad mini, which is bluetooth smart enabled, and it works fine, so the sensor and its fitting are correct. Very frustrating.

    Does anyone know if the following would work. If I buy a bluetooth smart dongle, cheap off ebay, and connect it to my Nexus will it work? Apparently bluetooth smart is supported by Google 4.3 and above. Mines running 5.something, so with enabled hardware it should work?
  • fuzzdogfuzzdog Posts: 190
    Hi Term1te.
    Thanks for your input.
    I'm pretty sure my Nexus 7 is post 2013. At least it was bought either at the end of 2013 or the start of 2014. Is there a way to tell if it has the hardware?
    To be honest I've been trying hardest with the s4mini. Which does work with a wahoo HRM.

    I also tried connecting today with an i phone 4s and the wahoo utility app. But if wouldn't work with that either so I am now going to return the sensors.

    This really does seem to be a minefield. Two pretty up to date tablets/ phones which sound like there is a good chance they are not compatible. All very frustrating really. And leaving me with a turbo muin that doesn't do any of the things I was expecting it to do.
  • wongataawongataa Posts: 916
    The original Nexus 7 which came out in 2012 does not have Bluetooth 4 and will not work with any Bluetooth 4 sensors no matter what version of Android it is running.
    The 2013 version has Bluetooth 4 and should work with Bluetooth 4 sensors. If you go to the about tablet part in the settings you should be able to find something to help you identify what version it is.
    Also, the 2013 N7 has a rear facing camera, the 2012 one does not.

    I don't know if Bluetooth dongles work in Android tablets. That would have to be researched.
  • fuzzdogfuzzdog Posts: 190
    Okay. Well i've got the two way camera version so guess it should be okay but its not so the sensors are going back.
    will keep you posted as I'm sure some of the info gleaned here will be of use to others.
    Thanks all.
  • term1teterm1te Posts: 1,462
    Apparently the 2012 Nexus 7s have the hardware to receive Bluetooth 4/smart, but it is not enabled. There is a $10 App you can buy from the Google Play store called "Bluetooth Low Energy Enabler" which will get it working. However, you need to root your tablet, which sounds a bit too scary for me. The more tech savvy might try that though. I'm still hoping a cheap Bluetooth 4 dongle will work?

    What is even more frustrating, is that my laptop quite happily detects the sensor on the Turbo Muin, so I thought I'd go down the Trainerroad route, but that requires a specific Bluetooth dongle, which I can't find for less than £24 delivered. :x
  • fuzzdogfuzzdog Posts: 190
    Hello All.
    Some news about the sensors.
    I returned the Elite/Echowell sensor and instead purchased a Bontrager speed and cadence combo sensor which has both ANT+ and Bluetooth smart (looks exactly like the Wahoo SC and does the same job) and guess what? my phone picks it up straight away, no problems.
    The only problem is trying to attach it to the bike in a place where the speed sensor can pick up the magnet in the Muin. If i hold the sensor by the magnet it picks up the signal but as soon as I attach it to the frame the signal is lost despite the line on the sensor only being a few mm away from the magnet area. I am starting to think that the designers of the Muin didn't really think this part of the design through that much. If even with a working sensor you have to fiddle around quite so much to get it to see the sensor. I think it would have been nice to have had a built in sensor on the Muin like I think the Wahoo trainer has. Don't think I'm ever going to get the training app working and if I have to fuss about this much trying I don't think I could be bothered really. too much wasted time that could be put to better use actually riding.
  • am7am7 Posts: 59
    Forgive my ignorance but why are you attaching the speed sensor to the bike? As I see it the sensor should be attached to the muin as below pictures, the magnet is behind the location of the double-sided sticker:

    sensore-2_0.jpg?itok=72ol8nh9sensore-1.jpg?itok=LB-9PdDQ

    You would attach the sensor to the bike if the magnet was on the rear wheel but the wheel is taken off the bike when the bike is on the turbo.
  • fuzzdogfuzzdog Posts: 190
    Hello.
    Yes...that is what you would do with that particular sensor. It is a speed sensor only and designed to be used as you say but you can also get a speed and cadence sensor from elite that is supposed to be used with the Muin and will also supply you with a cadence reading. The original one I had didn't work and I sent it back. I replaced it with the Bontrager one which does work now ( the central connection nut needed tightening) this is placed on the frame and the swing arm connects to the area where the battery is. The benefit of using this type of sensor is that you can use it on the bike for other apps like Map my ride, Strava etc or just to connect to your bike computer where as the one in your diagram is only meant for use on the trainer.
    With these sensors costing quite a bit I didn't really want to double up if I could get one that does both. Using the bontrager sensor means I can only get a speed reading though but the original Elite version would have given me cadence as well ha it worked.
    You see? :)
  • am7am7 Posts: 59
    Ok let me see if I can get this straight. You have purchased the separate elite speed and cadence sensors which when mounted to the bike would give you speed/cadence both on the road and on the trainer without alterations. These did not work for some reason and you decided to return them and purchase a third party bontrager combined speed/cadence sensor which is the same as the wahoo unit. You have mounted this sensor so far back in the chainstay as per linked pdf so that the crank arm magnet cannot reach the sensor and now you only have speed reading on road/trainer but no cadence reading on either. This does not make sense to me. I am guessing you do not have another cadence sensor on the bike?
    I also have the wahoo sensor. I get speed/cadence on the road and cadence only on the trainer as the rear wheel where the magnet sits is off when the bike is mounted to the trainer. If I want speed reading as well on the trainer I stick the elite speed sensor on the trainer and good to go.
  • fuzzdogfuzzdog Posts: 190
    Yep. I know, but that does mean buying two sensors. If the first combo sensor had worked it would have killed two birds but it didn't and to be honest I didn't like the system either. Which is one reason why I cot the Bontrager which I can also connect via Ant+ to my bike computer and phone all at the same time.
    Although I am slightly surprised that your set up works too because I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that you couldn't connect two separate sensors at the same time and that they had to be a combo.
    Anyway as much I I would have liked cadence info as well on the Muin I find now that I have got the system working that I don't much like the Elite app anyway and seem to find myself just using the Wahoo fitness app and not paying much attention to the speed anyway. Preffering to watch the heart rate. I don't have much time at all to set it all up each time. I can't help feeling sometimes that all the techy stuff gets in the way of the cycling. before last year I didn't even bother with a simple bar computer and was quite happy. Then I got an action cam and a computer and now this. My rides turned into a bit of a pain, constantly stopping to see if the camera was running or not, why wasn't my computer reistering mileage and speed when the camera was running, All sorted now but what a faff.
    I'm using this stuff because I want to get fit and tailor my training but when I'm on the road I would rather keep it simple really. I'm not a technophobe or a luddite but it was spoiling the rides and I think I could tell the designers a thing or two about many improvements they could make. Some that are pretty obvious.
  • am7am7 Posts: 59
    I specifically bought the muin instead of some tacx one because it had no powercord, no laptop, no ipad, no tv, no movies, no google earth tracks, no Blu-ray videos, no internet multiplayer, no virtual tracks, etc. etc. I liked the simplicity of it. I never installed the elite app. I only use the wahoo app with heart rate and cadence on the muin. I will probably stick a speed sensor on the trainer to get speed as well. I agree I do not like the double elite sensor system at all. The whole muin speed/cadence looks and feels like an afterthought. I didn't realize the bontrager was ant+, my wahoo one which looks exactly the same is BLE.
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