A polarised system?

ugo.santalucia
ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,237
edited February 2015 in Pro race
Was reading Mercier's comments on the BBC and was struck by his allegations that US cyclists have been treated differently compared to European cyclists.

Interestingly of the 9 Tour de France rewritten by the Anti Doping, 8 were won by US cyclists and only one by a European cyclist.
Other non US riders that got away keeping their titles include: Basso (Giro 2006); Ullrich (Tour 1997, Vuelta 1999 and Gold 2000); Riis (Tour 1996); Pantani (Giro and Tour 1998); Di Luca (Giro 2007) Vinokourov (Vuelta 2006) Heras (Vuelta 2000,2003,2004) Menchov (Giro 2009; Vuelta 2005 and 2007).
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Comments

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,571
    Only Landis and Armstrong, and Landis got caught, and Armstrong got grassed up when the FBI investigated.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,571
    Also, you've got to think of the difference in cultural attitudes to cheating in sport.

    Has been mentioned in the past and on here about the difference between Anglo and Latin/non Anglo attitudes to doping etc.
    _
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,237
    OK, but it's not USADA or the FBI who strip the titles... isn't ASO who strip people from the titles they give away? Why not Riis... or Pantani?
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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,571
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    OK, but it's not USADA or the FBI who strip the titles... isn't ASO who strip people from the titles they give away? Why not Riis... or Pantani?

    Riis offered in the press conference - at that point it's moot anyway.

    Pantani wasn't caught in the Tour.

    Ultimately I think's a bit moot anyway.

    Lance is right when he says he won 7 Tours. He did - i bloody well watched all 21 weeks of them.

    Sure official records will say no winner for those 7 but we all know it's Lance anyway.

    Jan Cleijne's Legend of the Tour de France features Armstrong heavily, as they should - and let's face it, that feels more real than some arbitrary results sheet that looks like a spreadsheet.

    The records don't really matter - the Tour is about the 3 weeks when it's on and what happens then.

    Belgian commentators say it all the time ' what makes great races that live in your memory is how they're won, not the win itself' (they're a bit punchier than that), but it's so true.
    _
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,237
    I am 100% with you... however, one of the problems in the sport is that is way too arbitrary.
    Basso wins the Giro, but one month later is not allowed to take part in the Tour, yet he is still the Giro winner. It looks like everyone uses arbitrary metrics... the Tour always made it clear Di Luca was not welcome, yet he won the Giro.

    In this lottery, there are winners and losers... and either way is as unfair as it can possibly be
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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,571
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    I am 100% with you... however, one of the problems in the sport is that is way too arbitrary.
    Basso wins the Giro, but one month later is not allowed to take part in the Tour, yet he is still the Giro winner. It looks like everyone uses arbitrary metrics... the Tour always made it clear Di Luca was not welcome, yet he won the Giro.

    In this lottery, there are winners and losers... and either way is as unfair as it can possibly be

    That's life.

    :)

    Would be no fun otherwise ;).

    Fairness is overrated. I want the illusion of fairness when I'm watching, and that's about it.

    Cycling's definitely not fair, and never has been.
    _
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,237
    Not to speak about Valverde... disqualified after a long proceeding but allowed to keep his palmares of the period to which the ban refers... the small matter of a couple of monuments
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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,571
    Yup.

    And he's a good villain to have!
    _
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,929
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    Feargal McKay ‏@fmk_RoI · 18m18 minutes ago
    A summary of punishments meted out by USADA arising from USPS investigation so far
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  • CCalculus
    CCalculus Posts: 16
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Also, you've got to think of the difference in cultural attitudes to cheating in sport.

    Has been mentioned in the past and on here about the difference between Anglo and Latin/non Anglo attitudes to doping etc.

    How are supposed cultural differences relevant to whether a rider is stripped of particular results?

    The UCI Anti-doping Rules (http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rule ... eutral.pdf) determine which results can be disqualified (Article 10).
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,308
    I seem to remember a certain Spanish rider lost a Tour and a Giro just recently...
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 21,812
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    I seem to remember a certain Spanish rider lost a Tour and a Giro just recently...

    This fact is also being ignored, if it boils down to a question of GT titles.

    In reality, just two US riders losing Tour titles, to one Euro rider shows how weak Mercier's argument for title restoration is.
    The number of titles being irrelevant to the question of US victimisation.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • EKIMIKE
    EKIMIKE Posts: 2,232
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    OK, but it's not USADA or the FBI who strip the titles... isn't ASO who strip people from the titles they give away? Why not Riis... or Pantani?

    It's the UCI that stripped the titles. The ASO has no enforcement role. I can't be arsed to dig around for it but I recall someone from the ASO, Prudhomme maybe, saying something along the lines of a blank record being silly. I agree.

    All we need are asterisks and footnotes.

    ASO's TdF history guide features Armstrong in strikethrough font (interestingly in 2009 too). Landis, Leipheimer, Hincapie, Zabriskie, Menchov and Berhard Kohl feature in strikethrough font. Landis is completely omitted from the GC listing for 2006 but features in the description of the race that year. Same with Contador in 2010. Riis has an asterisk next to his name in 1996 but not in 1997. Nothing for Ullrich. Schumacher and Piepoli are asterisked in 2008. Ricco is mentioned in brackets as declassified for his stage win. Astarloza features in a footnote with Casar inserted retrospectively as stage winner.

    Inconsistent application, but no complete omissions of how it played out on the road.
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  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Lance is right when he says he won 7 Tours. He did - i bloody well watched all 21 weeks of them.
    I too watched most of the 21 weeks but I came to the conclusion that many of the days it was on, it was a "Cartoon or Puppet" extravaganza with mountains in the background put on by the French for Media Hype.
    Whatever it was became a bore and not true to life so only fit for children's programs in the afternoons..
    I expected the Yellow Jersey to change into the Superman Kit but the French never pushed it that far from reality.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,571
    deejay wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Lance is right when he says he won 7 Tours. He did - i bloody well watched all 21 weeks of them.
    I too watched most of the 21 weeks but I came to the conclusion that many of the days it was on, it was a "Cartoon or Puppet" extravaganza with mountains in the background put on by the French for Media Hype.
    Whatever it was became a bore and not true to life so only fit for children's programs in the afternoons..
    I expected the Yellow Jersey to change into the Superman Kit but the French never pushed it that far from reality.

    2003 wasn't boring - and you can't blame the drugs for boring racing.
    _
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,237
    What's boring about an aggressive yellow jersey? You can't fault Armstrong for not wanting to win... I certainly enjoyed those Tours better than the previous 5 won by Indurain, with higher hematocrit (Chiappucci was 60, right?) where basically nothing happened until the 60Km time trial on a motorway
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  • cal_stewart
    cal_stewart Posts: 1,840
    Never understood why Wiggo gets so much shoot for the way he won the tour, big mig did it for 5 years in a row and is loved.

    Lance's problem seems to boil down to he's a weapon that know one likes.
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  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    What's boring about an aggressive Superman jersey? You can fault Armstrong for wanting to win...
    .....because as an actor he was greedy for the money. :idea:
    I was old enough to be unimpressed (ie, not at an impressionable age like so many, many) by the show business performances and wondered how the same old script was enacted.
    I kept looking for those strings on the puppets taking part and marveled at how good the cartoonists were, with their very life like creations.
    Everything about those TDF's were surreal and unbelievable with their caricature of a dream world moderate Texan bike rider and the give away to these thoughts were that it must have been too expensive to make a season long production.
    The 6/7 weeks of production costs could be met but those costs were too high for a season of cycle racing, so for the rest of the year it was the Celebrity Circuit to pay his costs.

    1994-Indurain in the Giro lost out to the EPO Gewiss team who again nearly beat him in TDF.
    1995-Indurain TDF fights off another EPO Gewiss rider.
    1996 Indurain TDF cannot hold the many EPO riders and the former Gewiss rider wins for the new Low Life, Team Telekom
    End of the season it's "Feck It" I'm off to leave this new breed of Supermen to get on with it.
    They did with a decade of EPO winners
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,237
    deejay wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    What's boring about an aggressive Superman jersey? You can fault Armstrong for wanting to win...
    .....because as an actor he was greedy for the money. :idea:
    I was old enough to be unimpressed (ie, not at an impressionable age like so many, many) by the show business performances and wondered how the same old script was enacted.
    I kept looking for those strings on the puppets taking part and marveled at how good the cartoonists were, with their very life like creations.
    Everything about those TDF's were surreal and unbelievable with their caricature of a dream world moderate Texan bike rider and the give away to these thoughts were that it must have been too expensive to make a season long production.
    The 6/7 weeks of production costs could be met but those costs were too high for a season of cycle racing, so for the rest of the year it was the Celebrity Circuit to pay his costs.

    1994-Indurain in the Giro lost out to the EPO Gewiss team who again nearly beat him in TDF.
    1995-Indurain TDF fights off another EPO Gewiss rider.
    1996 Indurain TDF cannot hold the many EPO riders and the former Gewiss rider wins for the new Low Life, Team Telekom
    End of the season it's "Feck It" I'm off to leave this new breed of Supermen to get on with it.
    They did with a decade of EPO winners
    Sounds like you have a conspiracy theory there...
    Interesting you see Riis as the first EPO winner, because according to Lemond and Fignon, EPO arrived in the peloton well before 1996 and I am convinced the first EPO winner is not Riis. Indurain had a power/weight ratio around 7 Watt/Kg, higher than Armstrong, which is beyond what is considered physiologically possible by most respected experts.
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  • cal_stewart
    cal_stewart Posts: 1,840
    Can't believe people think big mig was clean
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  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,237
    Cal_Stewart wrote:
    Can't believe people think big mig was clean

    For many folks cheats are nasty individuals and because Miguelon was a nice guy, generous and humble, then he must be clean. When they nailed Basso, nobody could believe it in Italy, as he was such a nice guy... while Di Luca and Ricco'... well, it was obvious, wasn't it? You just had to look at them...
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  • mm1
    mm1 Posts: 1,063
    CCalculus wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Also, you've got to think of the difference in cultural attitudes to cheating in sport.

    Has been mentioned in the past and on here about the difference between Anglo and Latin/non Anglo attitudes to doping etc.

    How are supposed cultural differences relevant to whether a rider is stripped of particular results?

    The UCI Anti-doping Rules (http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rule ... eutral.pdf) determine which results can be disqualified (Article 10).

    Didn't Pat get a bit tangled up talking about cultural differences between northern and southern europe when what he was really talking about (sort of) was the differences between catholic and protestant attitudes and traditions about contrition and forgiveness? Talking about Armstrong being a scapegoat may be right, but it was a smokescreen that suited him at the time. Lots of positioning ahead of CIRC, fascinating.
  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    Cal_Stewart wrote:
    Can't believe people think big mig was clean
    And to reply to ugo.santalucia
    Do not think that I'm that gullible or naive but I do say Indurain didn't have the EPO that Conconi perfected with Moreno Argentin and used effectively by Bjarne Riis when that pair parted and so followed by the whole EPO era.
    I got shouted down (somewhere) when I said that the USA developed a drug to take on the East Germans in their only World Sport playground, the Olympics because they don't like loosing.
    From the following quote you might see a connection to "Dutch riders" who died in the eighties and other mysterious performances of that period.
    - 1980 Olympics
    America's successes at Los Angeles were coloured by revelations that riders had blood transfusions before their events, a practice known as blood doping or blood boosting. The transfusions were to increase red blood cells in riders' blood, thus taking more oxygen to their muscles. They received the blood of others with similar blood types.
    The French coach and former world champion, Daniel Morelon, told the sports paper L'Equipe that American medical treatment was "extremely elaborate". He added: "I didn't say they were taking drugs but on the other hand we and many others were still at the stage of trying our little vitamins." Steve Hegg won a gold and a silver; Rebecca Twigg, Pat McDonough and Leonard Nitz won silver medals. They were identified in the subsequent inquiry as having had transfusions.
    I watched Lemond make his comeback in 1989 and was suspicious of his performance in the mountains.
    The first mountain day he was knackered and grovelled for a back wheel to suck along and the next time he was storming. I still havn't swallowed it.
    I watched Indurain as a Delgado domestic in that race and my radar was on him when he had won Paris-Nice earlier that year then again in 1990 and his progress was steadily improving to a GT winner.
    Bjarne Riis another domestic (with Fignon until he retired) was helped by Rolf Sorensen into the Ariostea team where Moreno Argentin won the team its first "monument".
    Moreno Argentin had worked with Francesco Conconi to perfect the EPO drug and in 1994 he formed the Gewiss Ballan Team with Bjarne Riis in it and that year they took most of the major honours including the Giro.

    I doubt that Indurain was in the loop and if you had seen the 1994 Giro where the Gewiss team gave Indurain such a working over and Bjarne Riis continued in 1996 you might understand why he got the hell out of there.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • CCalculus
    CCalculus Posts: 16
    deejay wrote:
    Moreno Argentin had worked with Francesco Conconi to perfect the EPO drug and in 1994 he formed the Gewiss Ballan Team with Bjarne Riis in it and that year they took most of the major honours including the Giro.

    I doubt that Indurain was in the loop and if you had seen the 1994 Giro where the Gewiss team gave Indurain such a working over and Bjarne Riis continued in 1996 you might understand why he got the hell out of there.

    Indurain was a Conconi client (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report- ... ni-clients). If Indurain wasn't using EPO, why was he working with an expert on EPO use and blood doping?
  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    CCalculus wrote:
    Indurain was a Conconi client (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report- ... ni-clients). If Indurain wasn't using EPO, why was he working with an expert on EPO use and blood doping?
    That old report keeps going nowhere and still says quote.
    There was however no definite proof of what service the payments were made for.
    Nothing about the Banesto Bus and many people took the Conconi Test because Conconi was a respected Professor at the University of Ferrara and at that time the IOC's Medical Committee appointed Conconi as a member.
    Then of course we have the Thomas Davy testimony with "I think so"
    Nothing else so you had better file Miguel Indurain with Greg Lemond, Cadel Evans and perhaps Carlos Sastre for all taking those little vitamin pills that Daniel Morelon talked about.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • CCalculus
    CCalculus Posts: 16
    There was a systematic doping program in place at Banesto:
    Davy said that during his time at Banesto in the mid-90's, it was quite possible to obtain EPO from the team doctor. "A system of medically assisted doping existed," he said.
    (http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/ ... news.shtml)

    So there was systematic doping at Banesto during the mid 90s yet the team leader wasn't using EPO or blood doping?

    With regards to Conconi, he was a well known doping doctor in the world of professional cycling during the 90s. Whether or not he was a 'respected Professor' or member of the IOC Medical Committee is completely irrelevant.
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    I'd love to think Big Mig was clean - probably my all time favourite and I loved watching his tour rides (1989 onwards). Still think he was the strongest in 1990 and could have won that tour had he not worked his socks off for a below par Delgado (Froome take note - that is what class riders do). I have to say though, I would be astonished if he wasn't on EPO. I suspect his EPO might not have been as good as Berzin / Riis's EPO. It always seemed that when he got out it was because he knew the game was up - it was all very sudden. Whatever, I'll forgive him because unlike Lance he was a decent guy - even Lemond says so!
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  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,385
    BigMat wrote:
    (Froome take note - that is what class riders do).

    2012?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,472
    ddraver wrote:
    BigMat wrote:
    (Froome take note - that is what class riders do).

    2012?

    I assume the reference is that Mig did it without any moaning and whining or making 'hurry up' gestures to Delgado.

    I think it's fair to say that Deejay has the same big blindspot when it comes to Big Mig as Frenchie does with Contador.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,237
    deejay wrote:
    I doubt that Indurain was in the loop and if you had seen the 1994 Giro where the Gewiss team gave Indurain such a working over and Bjarne Riis continued in 1996 you might understand why he got the hell out of there.

    I did see the 1994 Giro and yes, Berzin & co. had come out of nowhere to rule the world. I am fairly confident they knew it better than others, but others were only "one pill behind" rather than clean. If you dope, you dope, it is morally just as bad to have the latest product or the old one... being out of the loop doesn't make Big Mig any cleaner... the 7 Watt/Kg speak for themselves
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