Race Radios (NOT) Banned in 2015
Comments
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I don't understand the make the races shorter argument. It's like saying that the marathon would be more entertaining if the distance was shortened, perhaps to 100m. Most pro bike races are endurance events, and therefore required some distance, there is the track for people who like their entertainment served up more quickly.
Reducing team sizes would be the most effective way to reduce an individual's team's control, but that is unlikely to happen.0 -
What would probably happen, without radios, is, in the important big races, they racing would be completely closed down by the bigger teams, with little space given to anyone else.
If reducing the information available is going to improve racing, surely we should be campaigning to keep race routes secret from everyone but the organisers?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
TheBigBean wrote:I don't understand the make the races shorter argument. It's like saying that the marathon would be more entertaining if the distance was shortened, perhaps to 100m. Most pro bike races are endurance events, and therefore required some distance, there is the track for people who like their entertainment served up more quickly.Twitter: @RichN950
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I'm quite happy to watch all of a race, not one for popping back for the last 10km. The truth is we don't really know how much info is being transmitted to riders during a race because we don't have continuous in car viewing. I think it is obvious though that time gaps can be micro managed if someone has continuous access to TV pictures and then to riders.0
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iainf72 wrote:What would probably happen, without radios, is, in the important big races, they racing would be completely closed down by the bigger teams, with little space given to anyone else.
If reducing the information available is going to improve racing, surely we should be campaigning to keep race routes secret from everyone but the organisers?
There are a few 'biggish' races that already are sans radio. It's only WT races that have them - across all of road cycling.
I don't see what you're saying playing out particularly.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:There are a few 'biggish' races that already are sans radio. It's only WT races that have them - across all of road cycling.
I don't see what you're saying playing out particularly.
And by and large, are those races more interesting, or do people care about them more than WT races?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
The romantic in me would like to see the end of race radios (the sadist in me wants to see them ride on steel frames and fixed gears) but I can't see it doing all that much to make racing more exciting.
Essentially, it's all about information. I'm fairly sure teams start a race with a strategy and adapt tactics on the road to deal with new situations, and that the riders themselves do most of the adaptation. Without radios they have to wait longer to find out who is in the break, what the gap is, whether there's a split behind them etc. Any extra excitement and unpredictability is likely to be the result of decisions based on lack of information, not because they have to make tactical decisions themselves. E.g. someone dangerous slips into the break unnoticed, or the gap goes up faster than they thought. The end result of that, as Iain pointed out, is that it's likely the big teams would close down races and ride defensively - better to err on the side of caution than risk making a mistake. You might also see teams trying to bring even more riders to the front (as they do with GC riders in the sprint stages of the GTs), with potentially devastating consequences.
Meanwhile, there are situations - such as a split forming behind - where timely info about what's happening can give a platform for an unexpected attack that enlivens the race.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Is anyone actually arguing that the presence of radios improves the racing?
And if, as some people seem to be claiming, they make zero actual difference to the racing what is the justification for allowing them?
Edit: and No tA Doctor has just made a reasonable stab at providing a justificationTeam My Man 2022:
Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet0 -
DeadCalm wrote:Is anyone actually arguing that the presence of radios improves the racing?
And if, as some people seem to be claiming, they make zero actual difference to the racing what is the justification for allowing them?
Edit: and No tA Doctor has just made a reasonable stab at providing a justification
An additional argument is that radios act as a leveller between smaller and larger teams. If you have to have your team car nearby to get info quickly then car position becomes even more important than it is now. And the big teams tend to have their cars nearer the front.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
DeadCalm wrote:And if, as some people seem to be claiming, they make zero actual difference to the racing what is the justification for allowing them?Twitter: @RichN950
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RichN95 wrote:DeadCalm wrote:And if, as some people seem to be claiming, they make zero actual difference to the racing what is the justification for allowing them?
They're fair arguments. How about a sort of 'half-way' arrangment? Riders can talk to each other, and talk to the team car, but the team car and DS can't talk to the riders?
(don't ask me how this could be actually implemented )It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:The romantic in me would like to see the end of race radios (the sadist in me wants to see them ride on steel frames and fixed gears) but I can't see it doing all that much to make racing more exciting.
Essentially, it's all about information. I'm fairly sure teams start a race with a strategy and adapt tactics on the road to deal with new situations, and that the riders themselves do most of the adaptation. Without radios they have to wait longer to find out who is in the break, what the gap is, whether there's a split behind them etc. Any extra excitement and unpredictability is likely to be the result of decisions based on lack of information, not because they have to make tactical decisions themselves. E.g. someone dangerous slips into the break unnoticed, or the gap goes up faster than they thought.No tA Doctor wrote:The end result of that, as Iain pointed out, is that it's likely the big teams would close down races and ride defensively - better to err on the side of caution than risk making a mistake.No tA Doctor wrote:You might also see teams trying to bring even more riders to the front (as they do with GC riders in the sprint stages of the GTs), with potentially devastating consequences.No tA Doctor wrote:Meanwhile, there are situations - such as a split forming behind - where timely info about what's happening can give a platform for an unexpected attack that enlivens the race.Team My Man 2022:
Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet0 -
DeadCalm wrote:The fact that the excitement comes from lack of information is a bad thing why?DeadCalm wrote:I hear this argument a lot and it is made to sound as though it is simply a matter of turning a dial to ride defensively. Keeping a break on a shorter leash requires more effort. Teams would be faced with the dilemma of expending that effort at the risk of being unable to compete with other teams in the finale.Twitter: @RichN950
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DeadCalm wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:The romantic in me would like to see the end of race radios (the sadist in me wants to see them ride on steel frames and fixed gears) but I can't see it doing all that much to make racing more exciting.
Essentially, it's all about information. I'm fairly sure teams start a race with a strategy and adapt tactics on the road to deal with new situations, and that the riders themselves do most of the adaptation. Without radios they have to wait longer to find out who is in the break, what the gap is, whether there's a split behind them etc. Any extra excitement and unpredictability is likely to be the result of decisions based on lack of information, not because they have to make tactical decisions themselves. E.g. someone dangerous slips into the break unnoticed, or the gap goes up faster than they thought.
Well it was more a counterpoint to the idea that the problem with race radios is that the riders become automatons, that races become sterile because the all-seeing all-knowing DSs just move their pieces around.
Personally though, I like to see riders choose their tactics from good information, not to make decisions on when and where to attack or chase based on missing or incorrect data. It might occasionally be funny to see a rider sprint from the break to celebrate a win that was actually only second place as he didn't know someone had jumped earlier, but I'd rather see him try and work out whether the lone attacker could be brought back or bridged. I like tactics and strategy, but with poor data to work with they're pretty much useless, best guesses. So yeah, it could be exciting to see some chaos and confusion that let someone slip away unnoticed, but not as good as seeing a well executed strategy. If racing is chess on bikes then I'd rather it wasn't played in a darkened room with sunglasses on.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
RichN95 wrote:DeadCalm wrote:The fact that the excitement comes from lack of information is a bad thing why?DeadCalm wrote:RichN95 wrote:I hear this argument a lot and it is made to sound as though it is simply a matter of turning a dial to ride defensively. Keeping a break on a shorter leash requires more effort. Teams would be faced with the dilemma of expending that effort at the risk of being unable to compete with other teams in the finale.Team My Man 2022:
Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:DeadCalm wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:The romantic in me would like to see the end of race radios (the sadist in me wants to see them ride on steel frames and fixed gears) but I can't see it doing all that much to make racing more exciting.
Essentially, it's all about information. I'm fairly sure teams start a race with a strategy and adapt tactics on the road to deal with new situations, and that the riders themselves do most of the adaptation. Without radios they have to wait longer to find out who is in the break, what the gap is, whether there's a split behind them etc. Any extra excitement and unpredictability is likely to be the result of decisions based on lack of information, not because they have to make tactical decisions themselves. E.g. someone dangerous slips into the break unnoticed, or the gap goes up faster than they thought.
Well it was more a counterpoint to the idea that the problem with race radios is that the riders become automatons, that races become sterile because the all-seeing all-knowing DSs just move their pieces around.
Personally though, I like to see riders choose their tactics from good information, not to make decisions on when and where to attack or chase based on missing or incorrect data. It might occasionally be funny to see a rider sprint from the break to celebrate a win that was actually only second place as he didn't know someone had jumped earlier, but I'd rather see him try and work out whether the lone attacker could be brought back or bridged. I like tactics and strategy, but with poor data to work with they're pretty much useless, best guesses. So yeah, it could be exciting to see some chaos and confusion that let someone slip away unnoticed, but not as good as seeing a well executed strategy. If racing is chess on bikes then I'd rather it wasn't played in a darkened room with sunglasses on.Team My Man 2022:
Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet0 -
DeadCalm wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:DeadCalm wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:The romantic in me would like to see the end of race radios (the sadist in me wants to see them ride on steel frames and fixed gears) but I can't see it doing all that much to make racing more exciting.
Essentially, it's all about information. I'm fairly sure teams start a race with a strategy and adapt tactics on the road to deal with new situations, and that the riders themselves do most of the adaptation. Without radios they have to wait longer to find out who is in the break, what the gap is, whether there's a split behind them etc. Any extra excitement and unpredictability is likely to be the result of decisions based on lack of information, not because they have to make tactical decisions themselves. E.g. someone dangerous slips into the break unnoticed, or the gap goes up faster than they thought.
Well it was more a counterpoint to the idea that the problem with race radios is that the riders become automatons, that races become sterile because the all-seeing all-knowing DSs just move their pieces around.
Personally though, I like to see riders choose their tactics from good information, not to make decisions on when and where to attack or chase based on missing or incorrect data. It might occasionally be funny to see a rider sprint from the break to celebrate a win that was actually only second place as he didn't know someone had jumped earlier, but I'd rather see him try and work out whether the lone attacker could be brought back or bridged. I like tactics and strategy, but with poor data to work with they're pretty much useless, best guesses. So yeah, it could be exciting to see some chaos and confusion that let someone slip away unnoticed, but not as good as seeing a well executed strategy. If racing is chess on bikes then I'd rather it wasn't played in a darkened room with sunglasses on.
Well technically more of a tactic than a strategy, and yes, it's a good one. Tactics should involve exploiting any and every opportunity to gain an advantage (with a few provisios for sporting decency and fair play). But staying away only because nobody knew you'd gone is farcical.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
DeadCalm wrote:How does radio speed up getting a rider a spare wheel from a car that is following as closely behind the race as it is allowed in any event?
2. The rider can radio in the exact details of his problem so the mechanic is ready by the time he gets to the rider.
3. Teammates can be called back to assist with quick and efficient pacing backDeadCalm wrote:I disagree. I'm not convinced that either scenario is significantly more likely but even so, if the break burns out earlier or the break is discouraged sooner then counter-attacks nearer the end of the race will be encouraged ensuring more exciting racing.Twitter: @RichN950 -
No tA Doctor wrote:Well technically more of a tactic than a strategy, and yes, it's a good one. Tactics should involve exploiting any and every opportunity to gain an advantage (with a few provisios for sporting decency and fair play). But staying away only because nobody knew you'd gone is farcical.Team My Man 2022:
Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet0 -
RichN95 wrote:DeadCalm wrote:How does radio speed up getting a rider a spare wheel from a car that is following as closely behind the race as it is allowed in any event?
2. The rider can radio in the exact details of his problem so the mechanic is ready by the time he gets to the rider.
3. Teammates can be called back to assist with quick and efficient pacing backTeam My Man 2022:
Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet0 -
RichN95 wrote:DeadCalm wrote:I disagree. I'm not convinced that either scenario is significantly more likely but even so, if the break burns out earlier or the break is discouraged sooner then counter-attacks nearer the end of the race will be encouraged ensuring more exciting racing.Team My Man 2022:
Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet0 -
DeadCalm wrote:Yes, you are right, it would be a tactic. I guess the point I was trying to make is that doing away with race radios doesn't negate tactics or even stratagems, it just requires to adapt their tactics and stratagems to the new circumstances.Twitter: @RichN950
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DeadCalm wrote:Point 3 I concede. The others are irrelevant.DeadCalm wrote:Hang on. But you said they had caught them earlier because either they'd popped or been discouraged.Twitter: @RichN950
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I'm all for race radios being done away with. Power meters too. Can't say either particularly rile me though.Team My Man 2018: David gaudu, Pierre Latour, Romain Bardet, Thibaut pinot, Alexandre Geniez, Florian Senechal, Warren Barguil, Benoit Cosnefroy0
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RichN95 wrote:DeVlaeminck wrote:Anyway, getting back to your original idea that DSs 'micromanage' riders. What do you actually think they do?
Not sure it really counts as micromanagement, and I'm not wanting this post to seem like I'm joining a side in an ongoing debate, but...
I remember when the Belgian cobbled races had cameras in the team cars a couple of years back, just about every shot of the DSs went along the lines of "Molenberg in 2km get thee to the front" etc. Obviously, many (most?) of the guys on the end of such an instruction know exactly how far such-and-such a pivotal point of a race is, but I recall an interview with Thomas where he talked about just how utterly lost he felt at times in the Spring one-day races due to the winding, looping nature of the courses.
That's the sort of thing I don't like about race radios. But as I said, I'm not one to get particularly upset by them.Team My Man 2018: David gaudu, Pierre Latour, Romain Bardet, Thibaut pinot, Alexandre Geniez, Florian Senechal, Warren Barguil, Benoit Cosnefroy0 -
The_Boy wrote:I remember when the Belgian cobbled races had cameras in the team cars a couple of years back, just about every shot of the DSs went along the lines of "Molenberg in 2km get thee to the front" etc. Obviously, many (most?) of the guys on the end of such an instruction know exactly how far such-and-such a pivotal point of a race is, but I recall an interview with Thomas where he talked about just how utterly lost he felt at times in the Spring one-day races due to the winding, looping nature of the courses.
Most of the time the DS says something like that to convince himself he's contributing.
Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:DeadCalm wrote:Point 3 I concede. The others are irrelevant.
The UCI don't see the speed a wheel gets changed as relevant, or else they wouldn't have introduced the Lawyer Tab rule."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:Twitter: @RichN950
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RichN95 wrote:The_Boy wrote:I remember when the Belgian cobbled races had cameras in the team cars a couple of years back, just about every shot of the DSs went along the lines of "Molenberg in 2km get thee to the front" etc. Obviously, many (most?) of the guys on the end of such an instruction know exactly how far such-and-such a pivotal point of a race is, but I recall an interview with Thomas where he talked about just how utterly lost he felt at times in the Spring one-day races due to the winding, looping nature of the courses.
Most of the time the DS says something like that to convince himself he's contributing.
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Yup, but my point was that often they don't necessarily know *exactly* how far the 'berg is. Of course they know they need to be at the front, and they *should* know at what point on the course they come, but if you don't know the roads, lose focus for a few km or whatever it is probably quite easy to misjudge the best time to actually make your move. Not likely to win or lose a race for anyone, but it's the sort of small edge which comes with experience, and having a DS giving accurate countdowns to each and every focal point of a race *can* have a leveling effect to counteract that. The fact that it also annoys a whole heap of riders who know exactly where they are is just collateral.Team My Man 2018: David gaudu, Pierre Latour, Romain Bardet, Thibaut pinot, Alexandre Geniez, Florian Senechal, Warren Barguil, Benoit Cosnefroy0 -
The_Boy wrote:I'm all for race radios being done away with. Power meters too. Can't say either particularly rile me though.
This is something that baffles me more than radios. For the life of me I can't understand what the fuss is about power meters.
[Not aimed at The_Boy] There seems to be an undercurrent that technology is somehow making races "less exciting". But the reality is that more exposure and increased professionalism is raising the stakes so everything is becoming more conservative. I think it was Andy Hampsten who I heard interviewed a few years ago who said when he started racing in Europe, races tended to start off 'piano' for the first few hours, then a mad flurry when TV started up. As more TV came along, the earlier the madness started.
27 / 28 years ago when I started watching cycling, Phil Ligget used to marvel at how the peloton managed to time their catches of escapees to perfection.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0