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Race Radios (NOT) Banned in 2015

tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,464
edited January 2015 in Pro race
http://inrng.com/2014/12/race-radios-banned-2015/


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  • Formula One is a sport that has the similar potential to be boring for the TV watching masses. Having race radio transmitted to all, i.e. the public and the opposition, makes it more interesting, takes away the argument about safety, and helps the whole thing to be more understandable.

    I would like to see radio kept in televised races, and for all communications to be non-private.
  • ProssPross Posts: 28,144
    Can't see how making the communication public will make it more exciting. The opposing DSs will know exactly when someone has been told to attack and can neutralise it more easily.
  • Pross wrote:
    Can't see how making the communication public will make it more exciting. The opposing DSs will know exactly when someone has been told to attack and can neutralise it more easily.
    Thats the point. By making it public you remove the remote control aspect and the riders will have to work it out themselves.
  • deejaydeejay Posts: 3,138
    Dippydog3 wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Can't see how making the communication public will make it more exciting. The opposing DSs will know exactly when someone has been told to attack and can neutralise it more easily.
    Thats the point. By making it public you remove the remote control aspect and the riders will have to work it out themselves.
    That seems to work out the same as the OP ??
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • gsk82gsk82 Posts: 2,972
    i believe the formula one radio transmissions are heavily filtered by the releasing team and a few minutes late. it may be good to know that lewis hamilton is having problems with he rear right brake but in cycling by the time the message is played the attack or whatever will have gone. it works in formula 1 because they're essentially doing the same thing lap after lap so the delay isn't noticeable.

    does this mean that all radios are banned? i always thought the common sense approach would be to let them have radios but only have official race radio broadcasting.
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • can't remember what year or stage for that matter, but the time h&c blew the race apart in the crosswinds was one of my favourite stages ever which may not have happened without race radios. Having a good DS is an important part of the team, not radios is almost like not letting a manager tell his players what to do in football. It would probably also mean break aways would never be allowed much more than a few minutes lead as the bunch would want to keep them in check a bit more
  • HTC in 2010 I think, stage 3 or 4 on the tour. That was pre planned though and Mick Rogers called it as road captain... So not the best radio example!
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 22,550
    Interested what the reason for cycling being the same as it ever was...except we can now see how dull it is for 95% of the time.... will be next Christmas

    Power meters I suspect
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • gsk82gsk82 Posts: 2,972
    if by recollection fo "chasing legends" is correct it was pre planned cos the team car got information from people further up the road about the wind. it was my favourite part of the dvd by a distance
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,037
    I'm in favour of banning them - let's have a look and see what happens - I suspect it'll result in very little difference most of the time but when it does it'll tend to make things more exciting.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • redvisionredvision Posts: 2,712
    I really can't understand why they are banning them. I mean what's the difference with riders dropping back to the DS car and getting the same info to that which is passed over the radio?

    I cannot see any difference in the outcomes. You will still get breakaways. You will still get chases timed to perfection. IMO the only thing you won't get is rapid warnings to the riders about immediate dangers on the road ahead etc.

    Out of interest, is it only radio's they are banning or all devices which communicate with the team cars?
    If the later, then what about heart rate and other sensor data which Cookson, iirc, actually called to be open for tv audiences? And what about the bike computers themselves? I cant see it being too difficult for info from the team car to be displayed on the riders GPS/computer device.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,037
    redvision wrote:
    I really can't understand why they are banning them. I mean what's the difference with riders dropping back to the DS car and getting the same info to that which is passed over the radio?


    The difference is the time it takes to make a decision - in races often decisions have to be made in seconds not minutes.

    Someone made an analogy with football - in football the manager can dictate strategy but he isn't telling the players where to pass, when to shoot etc - a DS in the car can still send his team out with a strategy and can make changes to that strategy during the race they just wont be able to micromanage. Not that cycling should necessarily copy football but if anything these changes would make the position of the DS during a race more akin to that of the football manager during a match.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • redvisionredvision Posts: 2,712
    redvision wrote:
    I really can't understand why they are banning them. I mean what's the difference with riders dropping back to the DS car and getting the same info to that which is passed over the radio?


    The difference is the time it takes to make a decision - in races often decisions have to be made in seconds not minutes.

    Someone made an analogy with football - in football the manager can dictate strategy but he isn't telling the players where to pass, when to shoot etc - a DS in the car can still send his team out with a strategy and can make changes to that strategy during the race they just wont be able to micromanage. Not that cycling should necessarily copy football but if anything these changes would make the position of the DS during a race more akin to that of the football manager during a match.


    Good analogy! Never thought of it that way.
    I still can't see it making much of a difference but guess time will tell.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,209
    edited December 2014
    Someone made an analogy with football - in football the manager can dictate strategy but he isn't telling the players where to pass, when to shoot etc - a DS in the car can still send his team out with a strategy and can make changes to that strategy during the race they just wont be able to micromanage. Not that cycling should necessarily copy football but if anything these changes would make the position of the DS during a race more akin to that of the football manager during a match.
    But you're assuming that they micromanage at the moment. All the evidence that I've seen suggests that most of the time they are stating the bleeding obvious or shouting random encouragement. Anything constructive tends to be telling riders about the parts of the race they can't see rather than actual tactical decisions.

    Riders are quite capable of thinking for themselves if given sufficient information. In fact they're probably better placed than the DS.

    It won't happen anyway.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • thomthomthomthom Posts: 3,574
    Two months in and every crash will be claimed as 'could have been avoided' with radios. Wait and see..
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 22,550
    ThomThom wrote:
    Two months in and every crash will be claimed as 'could have been avoided' with radios. Wait and see..

    Likewise every no name attack that succeeds will be hailed as total success...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,209
    ThomThom wrote:
    Two months in and every crash will be claimed as 'could have been avoided' with radios. Wait and see..
    And every exciting race will be heralded as being down to the lack of radios, while it will never be mentioned when there are boring races. The ratio of exciting to boring will remain the same though.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • thomthomthomthom Posts: 3,574
    edited December 2014
    ddraver wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    Two months in and every crash will be claimed as 'could have been avoided' with radios. Wait and see..

    Likewise every no name attack that succeeds will be hailed as total success...

    Probably..

    So where does this takes us...
  • Seemingly a non-story and just a document that was not updated correctly.
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    Race radios will be used next year as normal
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,037
    RichN95 wrote:
    But you're assuming that they micromanage at the moment. All the evidence that I've seen suggests that most of the time they are stating the bleeding obvious or shouting random encouragement. Anything constructive tends to be telling riders about the parts of the race they can't see rather than actual tactical decisions.

    Riders are quite capable of thinking for themselves if given sufficient information. In fact they're probably better placed than the DS.

    It won't happen anyway.

    I think it might still come even if not next year. As I said in my first post I do agree that the majority of the time it'll make naff all difference but I do think there are times when we'll see a different outcome and when that does happen it'll tend to a more exciting one. There are times when a DS micromanages from the car - if only because they often have better information than the rider - they have the route map in front of them and often know where their other riders are.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,209
    I think it might still come even if not next year. As I said in my first post I do agree that the majority of the time it'll make naff all difference but I do think there are times when we'll see a different outcome and when that does happen it'll tend to a more exciting one. There are times when a DS micromanages from the car - if only because they often have better information than the rider - they have the route map in front of them and often know where their other riders are.
    But where are these examples of micromanaging? I can really only think of one example* of a DS making a tactical call on a radio that wouldn't have been obvious to the rider himself. Nine times out of ten when I see a DS on the radio he is shouting "Go, go, go! Si, si,si"


    *Cancellara attacking in Paris-Roubaix when his DS noticed that Boonen wasn't paying attention.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,037
    Well we aren't sat in every car in every race but off the top of my head at least one rider said he was called back when he followed Floyd Landis on his famous solo escape - the car told him there was no way Landis could sustain that effort. Another would be the car telling Froome to ease off when he was dropping Wiggins.

    That's two - it's fairly obvious that the DSs do make decisions at times why wouldn't they.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • Gazzetta67Gazzetta67 Posts: 1,892
    Surely this is the END for Team Sky. Do they actually know how to race without race radio's ? tin helmet on :mrgreen:
  • squiredsquired Posts: 1,216
    Personally I'd rather see the number of riders in a team in each race reduced. I think that would make a bigger difference than having or getting rid of race radios. As for race radios, I would just have them on open frequencies (to all teams in the race), so any team can listen in to any other team whenever they want. That would reduce/eliminate any controlling of tactics, without impacting the "safety" element.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,209
    Well we aren't sat in every car in every race but off the top of my head at least one rider said he was called back when he followed Floyd Landis on his famous solo escape - the car told him there was no way Landis could sustain that effort. Another would be the car telling Froome to ease off when he was dropping Wiggins.

    That's two - it's fairly obvious that the DSs do make decisions at times why wouldn't they.
    And they are both decisions that were fairly obvious tactical decisions (although we don't really know what Froome was thinking).

    In 1985 Greg LeMond attacked Hinault alongside with Stephen Roche. Had there been radios his DS would have called him back and Hinault, not LeMond, would have won that year. Oh, no hang on. LeMond didn't win. The DS just drove up to him and shouted at him to stop riding.

    Most tactical decisions are either preplaned, pretty obvious, or not particularly urgent. For those that are not, the rider is a far better placed to make the decisions, because he knows how he is feeling and isn't subject to a ten second TV delay.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,209
    edited December 2014
    squired wrote:
    Personally I'd rather see the number of riders in a team in each race reduced. I think that would make a bigger difference than having or getting rid of race radios. As for race radios, I would just have them on open frequencies (to all teams in the race), so any team can listen in to any other team whenever they want. That would reduce/eliminate any controlling of tactics, without impacting the "safety" element.
    I don't know about any team being able to hear them, but they should be made available for TV broadcast (with a suitable delay).

    And as you say, the team sizes will make far more difference.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,209
    Gazzetta67 wrote:
    Surely this is the END for Team Sky. Do they actually know how to race without race radio's ? tin helmet on :mrgreen:
    May I present Exhibit A: the 2011 World Championships.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Gazzetta67Gazzetta67 Posts: 1,892
    RichN95 wrote:
    Gazzetta67 wrote:
    Surely this is the END for Team Sky. Do they actually know how to race without race radio's ? tin helmet on :mrgreen:
    May I present Exhibit A: the 2011 World Championships.

    I was trying to be a tad sarky - Ok not EVERY race. or FROOOOOOOOOMY aka sean yates. :lol:
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,209
    Gazzetta67 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Gazzetta67 wrote:
    Surely this is the END for Team Sky. Do they actually know how to race without race radio's ? tin helmet on :mrgreen:
    May I present Exhibit A: the 2011 World Championships.

    I was trying to be a tad sarky - Ok not EVERY race. or FROOOOOOOOOMY aka sean yates. :lol:
    But the point is that Sky would probably be the least effected by it (if it happened). They ride in preplanned, rigorously trained for manner with little variation. (Hence why they are so much better at stage races than one-dayers)
    Twitter: @RichN95
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