UK ISIS/IS Fighters

mr_goo
mr_goo Posts: 3,770
edited April 2015 in The cake stop
This is a simple YES/NO question.
Should any UK national fighting in Syria or Iraq for ISIS/IS be permitted back into the UK? I believe that France and Australia have blocked re-entry for their play away nationals.

My answer is a big fat NO!
Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
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Comments

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,720
    I am afraid that it is not quite as simple as a yes/no answer.

    A number of people are confused by what is going on in the Middle East?

    Let me explain.

    We support the Iraqi government in the fight against ISIS.
    We don’t like ISIS, but ISIS is supported by Saudi Arabia who we do like.
    We don’t like Assad in Syria and we support the fight against him, but ISIS is also fighting against him.
    We don’t like Iran, but Iran supports the Iraqi government in its fight against ISIS.
    So some of our friends support our enemies.
    Some enemies are now our friends and some of our enemies are fighting against our other enemies, who we want to lose.
    We don't, however want our enemies who are fighting our enemies to win.
    If the people we want to defeat are defeated, they could be replaced by people we like even less.
    And all this was started by us invading a country to drive out terrorists; who were not actually there until we went in to drive them out.
    It's quite simple, really.
    Do you understand now?
    I hope that clears everything up for you. I know it did for me.....???????????????
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
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  • drlodge
    drlodge Posts: 4,826
    No. Simples.
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  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Should they be allowed back in? No. Should they be disposed of before even attempting to return? Yes.
  • arran77
    arran77 Posts: 9,260
    Like PBlakeney says it's a pretty complicated issue but if I did give either a yes or no answer I'd be saying no.
    "Arran, you are like the Tony Benn of smut. You have never diluted your depravity and always stand by your beliefs. You have my respect sir and your wife my pity" :lol:

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  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    PBlakeney wrote:
    I am afraid that it is not quite as simple as a yes/no answer.

    A number of people are confused by what is going on in the Middle East?

    Let me explain.

    We support the Iraqi government in the fight against ISIS.
    We don’t like ISIS, but ISIS is supported by Saudi Arabia who we do like.
    We don’t like Assad in Syria and we support the fight against him, but ISIS is also fighting against him.
    We don’t like Iran, but Iran supports the Iraqi government in its fight against ISIS.
    So some of our friends support our enemies.
    Some enemies are now our friends and some of our enemies are fighting against our other enemies, who we want to lose.
    We don't, however want our enemies who are fighting our enemies to win.
    If the people we want to defeat are defeated, they could be replaced by people we like even less.
    And all this was started by us invading a country to drive out terrorists; who were not actually there until we went in to drive them out.
    It's quite simple, really.
    Do you understand now?
    I hope that clears everything up for you. I know it did for me.....???????????????

    NO, NO, NO, NO, YES!
    I am aware it is a complete bu66ers muddle to put it politely. The Saudi issue has always irritated me. As does Qatar another supporter and safe haven for terror organisations. The Kingdom now has the largest fleet of Eurofighter Typhoons because the European nations were in recession and couldn't afford to meet their order obligations. So they were sold to the most ruthless Islamic state in the world. All because if we didn't, either the US, China or Russia would. F3kkin mad.

    If some berk looking for water and accidentally finding some sticky black stuff had kept quiet, a lot of this mess wouldn't have happened.
    However I do think we should stop re-entry of those from UK that have been involved with ISIS/IS.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Send them back to the countries in which they are alleged to have been fighting to face justice in their courts, but our diplomatic services should work hard monitoring their trials to make sure they are fair.
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    johnfinch wrote:
    Send them back to the countries in which they are alleged to have been fighting to face justice in their courts, but our diplomatic services should work hard monitoring their trials to make sure they are fair.

    A fair trial. Why? Did they give that poor US journalist a fair trial before his beheading. Did they give the poor Christians in Iraq any sympathy and fairness before their massacre? Live by the sword die by the sword.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    Also the issue that a good number of them have been brainwashed into believing the stuff that IS is saying. Should we treat them at criminals or victims?
  • diamonddog
    diamonddog Posts: 3,426
    Imposter wrote:
    Should they be allowed back in? No. Should they be disposed of before even attempting to return? Yes.
    ^^This
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    Also the issue that a good number of them have been brainwashed into believing the stuff that IS is saying. Should we treat them at criminals or victims?

    they are not brainwashed, they believe in the destruction of the "Christian" west and will stop at nothing to complete that aim, I do not believe that a good number of them are not in Syria/Iraq without the knowledge and support of their families, despite the media trying to say this is not the case.

    Victims? is that a troll ?
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,382
    Mr Goo wrote:
    johnfinch wrote:
    Send them back to the countries in which they are alleged to have been fighting to face justice in their courts, but our diplomatic services should work hard monitoring their trials to make sure they are fair.

    A fair trial. Why?

    Because without one they are subject to the same "justice" that they administered to that poor American journalist. That is what distinguishes "us" and "them"
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  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    mamba80 wrote:
    is that a troll ?

    But but you clearly are.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Mr Goo wrote:
    johnfinch wrote:
    Send them back to the countries in which they are alleged to have been fighting to face justice in their courts, but our diplomatic services should work hard monitoring their trials to make sure they are fair.

    A fair trial. Why? Did they give that poor US journalist a fair trial before his beheading. Did they give the poor Christians in Iraq any sympathy and fairness before their massacre? Live by the sword die by the sword.

    You have a fair trial so that you can find out who is guilty and who isn't guilty of fighting for ISIS. I wouldn't want to see any British Muslim who has been near Iraq or Syria in the past couple of years just declared guilty and sent off to languish in a prison if they weren't involved in any fighting.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,921
    Don't let em back.
    If they succeed in creating a Caliphate, let them stay there and rot in the stone age.
    If they are unsuccessful, ensure that they are tried in that country for war crimes. They should receive a fair trial, swiftly followed by a speedy execution.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,921
    I am aware that the UK can't deport anyone to a country for trial where they may face the death penalty. But I posted what should happen, not could or may.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    I don't do troll, but you suggested that these people are perhaps worthy of our sympathy as victims??? then you must be living on a different planet or are looking for a response.

    100s possibly low 1000s of uk nationals move abroad to fight and their families say "we had no idea?" yeah right.

    the security services need more funding, so that these people cant go abroad in the first place, because as said, we wouldn't be able to deport them back to Iraq etc - but what good are they in the uk either? would a spell in prison change their views, doubtful.
  • ilm_zero7
    ilm_zero7 Posts: 2,213
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Don't let em back.
    If they succeed in creating a Caliphate, let them stay there and rot in the stone age.
    .
    spot on !
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  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 16,517
    it it weren't for their oil and deep political connections, their paymasters in saudi arabia would long ago have been sanctioned, likewise the zionist extremists that have inflamed the region and cynically encouraged fundamentalist scum for decades

    unfortunately we're now seeing the result of the west's kowtowing to the various imaginary friend based countries in the region

    some tactically fused sand would result in fewer deaths and a happier world

    i appreciate that's not a yes/no answer, but that's because excluding them is not the answer, they are in love with death, fine, let them die, i'll push the button with less concern than crushing a cockroach
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  • verylonglegs
    verylonglegs Posts: 3,954
    I don't think you have to consider the cause and the Middle East issue, merely reduce it down to the basic fact these are people with a lust for violence and killing who have left the country to satisfy it. I see no grounds to admit such people back and let them into society.
  • Frank the tank
    Frank the tank Posts: 6,553
    As others have said, the whole situation is a mess and complicated,however, NO.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • nathancom
    nathancom Posts: 1,567
    Yes, let them back in. We allowed UK nationals to fight in the Spanish Civil war and this is not that different except for it being in the Middle East.

    Western nations cause worse damage to the world and more pain but they do it through things like sweatshops or drones dropping bombs on Pakistani villages. Much cleaner and less visible.

    I guess the entire world is a bu66ers muddle, to steal Mr Goo's phrase, and we are just lucky to sit in this bit of the muddle and not in some other part.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    edited August 2014
    nathancom wrote:
    Yes, let them back in. We allowed UK nationals to fight in the Spanish Civil war and this is not that different except for it being in the Middle East.

    Not sure if that was a serious comparison or not. The big difference is that the UK jihadis are actually fighting on the side of a particularly barbaric form of fascism, rather than against it. The International Brigade, as I'm sure you know, were fighting against fascism, rather than for it. The jihadis, incidentally are the same people who in some videos have vowed to wage war on the streets of Britain upon returning 'home'. Somethign which I'm pretty sure the Spanish volunteers never did.

    Apart from that though, they seem very reasonable.... :roll:
  • nathancom
    nathancom Posts: 1,567
    Imposter wrote:
    nathancom wrote:
    Yes, let them back in. We allowed UK nationals to fight in the Spanish Civil war and this is not that different except for it being in the Middle East.

    ...and except that the UK jihadis are effectively fighting on the side of a particularly barbaric form of fascism, rather than against it, like those in the Spanish Civil War. These are the same people who in some videos have vowed to wage war on the streets of Britain upon returning 'home'.

    Apart from that though, they seem very reasonable.... :roll:
    There were a fair few foreign nationals fighting for the Nationalists including groups of Irish.

    IS is certainly not pleasant but then it has come to exist in the cauldron of failed states propagated by the West in the first place. We really should keep our noses out as all we seem to do is make things worse and worse, mostly for innocent local inhabitants.

    I think in comparison the actions of UK nationals are less profound if more viscerally shocking. Once they return they should be arrested for their actions but we shouldn't simply scapegoat them for all the ills that Western politicians have created in our names.
  • Mark_P
    Mark_P Posts: 51
    Is everyone fighting for IS a criminal? I don't believe so. The scum that executed this journalist should get what's coming to him, preferably a drone's missile, in my view. But others have essentially fought against someone they view as a tyrant, and have been drawn on the crest of a wave into the formation of this protostate. At the end of the day, is it so different from the fighting that took place in the 1940s for a Jewish state in Palestine?
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,731
    Well one difference is that ISIS see us as the enemy - they see themselves as waging a holy war with us as part of the opposition. On that basis alone I wouldn't be allowing them into the country. If people have just been drawn into fighting for them well tough luck - people get drawn into criminality in the UK it doesn't mean we pat them on the head as say it wasn't their fault. The ideal would be all UK ISIS get killed in action but those that don't should not be able to come back as if nothing has happened.
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  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Doesn't matter whether they should be allowed back in or not, once on our soil, they are uk nationals and if not, will claim asylum and we ll give them a council house, so they can plot their next move.
    the Jews and international brigade were not engage in holy jihad against the west or anyone else they didnt agree with, in the main, they wanted to live, IS/ISIS (or any other Islamic grouping) are more than happy to met their maker and take us with them.
    so yes it is completely different from the formation of the Jewish state.
  • Mark_P
    Mark_P Posts: 51
    You make the mistake of generalising, mamba. Plenty of individuals in the international brigade would have been willing to carry out atrocious acts if it had meant the defeat of Franco. That doesn't mean all of them were evil and should have been prevented from returning, although plenty of people at the time were scared by the thought of returning commies.
    The Jews were more than happy enough to kill anyone who got in the way of establishing the Israeli state. They still are, as it happens. Just because they're the 'goodies', doesn't mean that their actions were a great deal different to the IS 'baddies'. Real life is a lot different to those Disney stories.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Assuming that these people don't get killed in battle, and that they don't end up on trial in Iraq or Syria, then who should get them if we don't let them back in? They're British citizens, we can't just say that some other country has to take them. Unless of course we send them to Saudi Arabia or one of the other sh1t-stirring states, let them deal with it.
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    Like a few commentators on this post, I feel that many of the families of the UK ISIS/IS fighters are fully aware of where their little darlings have gone to.
    Unbelievably the father of the Cardiff fighters has blamed the British Authorities for letting his sons go out to fight Syria/Iraq.
    Question for you all. How do these lads know where to go, who to meet etc etc. It cannot be the internet as that is monitored and any info would be taken down. Therefore the pipeline must start with individuals or organisations here in the UK and possibly in the mosques, some of which have preachers from the Mid East who may have contacts to the terror groups.
    As for radicalisation of these so called UK boys. I am still of the opinion that Islam even in its 'moderate' form (if there is one) is quite a radical way of life for us in the west. It still remains a mystery to me how we can square the circle of this religion in the open and inclusive cultures in western civilisations, that have allowed it to proliferate within their borders.
    IS, however are certainly taking the religion to the edge of darkness.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    johnfinch wrote:
    Assuming that these people don't get killed in battle, and that they don't end up on trial in Iraq or Syria, then who should get them if we don't let them back in? They're British citizens, we can't just say that some other country has to take them. Unless of course we send them to Saudi Arabia or one of the other sh1t-stirring states, let them deal with it.

    Personally, I'm hoping they will all end up as 'missing'...

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