Democracy?

solosuperia
solosuperia Posts: 333
edited March 2014 in The cake stop
Referendum in Crimea is illegal, I quote the West and the UN.
So democracy is only legal if the Government approves.
(Doesn't sound like democracy to me).
Yesterday watched inside a polling station on the BBC it all looks calm and no duress or underhand pressure.
For heavens sake, a large portion of the Crimean population are ethnic Russian. Indeed was part of Russia at one time,
and the majority speak Russian as their first language.
I heard a speech by William Hague, God help us he was rattling sabres and talking macho.
Why do the Americans take up this "High Noon" posture????
If the situation gets returned to the status quo won't that promote civil unrest and possibly worse?

Comments

  • Pituophis
    Pituophis Posts: 1,025
    I must admit this is the way I saw it too.
    Maybe I'm naive? I'm sure someone will come on and correct us. :(
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 16,577
    leaving aside the various rights and wrongs of what happened to the national and regional governments, the undeclared invasion of russian forces, and the sometimes violent suppression of people who dissented

    the simple reason it was undemocratic is that the ballot only offered the choice between moving crimea further away from ukraine but not all the way to russia, or simply moving it to russia

    there was no option to say "no, i like being in ukraine as it is, i don't want to become part of putin's ugly empire"

    fewer than 60% of the people are ethnic russians, even assuming many would have voted for one of the available options, it is not inconceivable that given a third option the other 40% might have made it a close vote, with no clear mandate

    but as the ballot was blatantly rigged to disenfranchise anyone who wanted to say 'no', it was clearly a mockery of the democratic process, it offered only the choice of 'yes' or 'yes'

    remember what putin did to chechnya? when it comes to leaving russia there's not even a trace of the illusory democracy he lauds in the crimea, there was no vote for the population he butchered in grozny
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    On Radio 5 Live on Monday 17th Mar, an expert on region of Crimea stated that at end of 2013 there was a poll taken about returning back to Russia. The result was in the low 40% wishing to become part of Putin's Federation. In a matter of a few months it is now in the 90% region.

    Also stated that there are parts of the Baltic States that are ethnic Russian and this could lead to similar action in that region. Apparently Putin wants to create a Federation of states that rivals the EU. That is why they are all pixxing out straight in Brussels.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • random man
    random man Posts: 1,518
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Also stated that there are parts of the Baltic States that are ethnic Russian and this could lead to similar action in that region. Apparently Putin wants to create a Federation of states that rivals the EU. That is why they are all pixxing out straight in Brussels.

    He could try it, it might work, I don't think it's been done before :roll:
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    random man wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Also stated that there are parts of the Baltic States that are ethnic Russian and this could lead to similar action in that region. Apparently Putin wants to create a Federation of states that rivals the EU. That is why they are all pixxing out straight in Brussels.

    He could try it, it might work, I don't think it's been done before :roll:

    What, you mean a sort of, I don't know, union of soviet, errr, maybe socialist republics?
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Akirasho
    Akirasho Posts: 1,892
    ??? srsly, I have to show this to you BRITS????

    http://youtu.be/dOOTKA0aGI0
  • Frank the tank
    Frank the tank Posts: 6,553
    Didn't this whole situation start when a democratically elected government get ousted by a rabble.

    However, because the rioters wanted closer ties to the west that's alright the rule of the ballot box can be overturned. Had the boot been on the other foot the rioters would have been looked on as a rabble and no credence would have been given to them by the west.

    Or have I mis-understood sommat.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • random man
    random man Posts: 1,518
    Frank the tank wrote:
    Didn't this whole situation start when a corrupt democratically elected government get ousted by a rabble.
    Or have I mis-understood sommat.

    FTFY :D
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,796
    Pretty simple.

    A fair election has two elements.

    1)Lack of intimidation at the polls. A situation where people feel genuinely safe to pick whoever they want.

    2) Honest and transparent counting.

    I suggest 1 was probably lacking, and 2 was almost certainly wasn't.

    Look at it this way.

    Country A invades country B, and declares a referendum in part of it, which they conduct and count themselves, 'protecting' it with their own armed forces, and refuse to let international arbiters examine the electoral process to make sure it is fair.


    In other news Kim Jong un had 100% turn out and received 100% of the votes in North Korea http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/14/world ... companion/
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,796
    What would you expect Russia to do if they 'lost' the referendum? Own up and march back out?
    _
  • nathancom
    nathancom Posts: 1,567
    I am not sure I ever believe a vote where 80% of people vote the same way...and this has all been carefully choreographed from Moscow where they have developed a mastery of managing democracy. This is frighteningly like Hitler's expansion into Sudatenland and Austria just without the ideology.

    I think this will be the end of it - perhaps the Americans have agreed a deal in private, Crimea and then no further. If that is the cost for Ukraine falling under Western influence then both sides will feel they have won something, and Russia would not have been willing to give up the Black Sea fleet as without it their power in the region is severely diminished.
  • florerider
    florerider Posts: 1,112
    Hanging chads and appointment of the President by the Supreme Court?

    Surely that is a prime case of a dubious electoral process - and one followed by a major armed conflict by the man appointed.

    I truly hope the proposition put forward by Nathancom is correct. My memories of seeing on the TV the bombed out appartment blocks in Grozny where kind folks invited me into their homes to share dinner are not ones I want to see repeated elsewhere.

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