Self-build, finding a plot etc...

bartman100
bartman100 Posts: 544
edited January 2014 in The cake stop
Some time daydreaming of one day building my own home drew me to this:

http://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/31537293

Without having done any research (yet), I'm making some assumptions:
- I cannot build on this land until I have permission
- I would be unlikely to gain permission for a residential home on such greenbelt land
- I may not even get permission for a static caravan
- there are probably precious few things I could actually do with this land, other than walk a dog and enjoy the view.

Would i be correct?

Comments

  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 16,668
    protected species, unclear boundaries, scary

    given how iffy the prospects of doing anything physically to it seem, how about...

    buy it

    set up a website overlaying a 1m grid on it over the google earth satellite image, with xy coordinates of the 43600-ish squares

    advertise plot sponsorship as a chance to contribute to keeping it an unspoilt, wildflower strewn, bumble bee friendly, vole ridden idyllic plot for evermore

    minimum price for each plot $10, 5 plots or more get 10% discount

    people have done very well out of stupider things on the interweb

    in fact, you could even skip buying it

    use profits to buy somewhere you can build
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • bartman100
    bartman100 Posts: 544
    I actually think the prospect of running it as a wild flower meadow and charging a few urban dwelling plebs a fiver to wander round and see butterflies and bees and such like may be a goer. Or maybe not.
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 16,668
    well, if it does turn out ok, bags i get a free plot

    seriously, it's something i've also mulled over, but at least for me finding land were you'd want to build, that you can afford, and without issues getting permission seems tough these days

    i did look at portugal once, algarve but way inland, a long derelict place on a huge wooded plot with services, but a change in finances canned things
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • Secteur
    Secteur Posts: 1,971
    Well I live in supposedly "protected green belt" land - so much so that the council refused me permission to turn some adjacent field into lawn, or to fence it (even though it cant be seen from the road or any other public place).

    However, they are very keen to keep pushing through wind turbines in the next field over.

    I suspect it's who you know, not what you know when it comes to making applications.
  • Lord_V
    Lord_V Posts: 54
    bartman100 wrote:
    Some time daydreaming of one day building my own home drew me to this:

    http://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/31537293

    Without having done any research (yet), I'm making some assumptions:
    - I cannot build on this land until I have permission
    - I would be unlikely to gain permission for a residential home on such greenbelt land
    - I may not even get permission for a static caravan
    - there are probably precious few things I could actually do with this land, other than walk a dog and enjoy the view.

    Would i be correct?

    - yes
    - depends on local policy as well as the area
    - as above
    - set up a shooting club?
  • bartman100
    bartman100 Posts: 544
    I'm going to find out what I can/can't/could/would do and I'll post the results.

    As others have confirmed, I suspect it's a lot of land for a relatively small amount of cash in a beautiful area - that you can't do anything with.
  • Lord_V
    Lord_V Posts: 54
    If you are serious about self build etc give me a shout, I work for a consultancy that specializes in getting planning permissions, flood risk assessments, utilities, transport assessments, structural design etc for developments ranging from one house for private individuals to huge developments for major house builders.

    It's rare we turn down work.
  • bartman100
    bartman100 Posts: 544
    @Lord_V thank you - I may just do that.
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    Green belt doesn't exist anymore. There is a scheme to build affordable housing so anyone thinking of moving into a greenbelt area thinking they are safe from estates popping up are in for a surprise.
    Living MY dream.
  • bartman100
    bartman100 Posts: 544
    VTech wrote:
    Green belt doesn't exist anymore..
    do you have any evidence to support this?
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    bartman100 wrote:
    VTech wrote:
    Green belt doesn't exist anymore..
    do you have any evidence to support this?


    It's a government directive which all councils have to abide by. Our village has been primed for a possible 150 new affordable homes and this scheme overrides green belt.
    Living MY dream.
  • bartman100
    bartman100 Posts: 544
    VTech wrote:
    bartman100 wrote:
    VTech wrote:
    Green belt doesn't exist anymore..
    do you have any evidence to support this?


    It's a government directive which all councils have to abide by. Our village has been primed for a possible 150 new affordable homes and this scheme overrides green belt.
    I don't think this means there is a carte blanche to build on greenbelt (yet) and given the specific example I linked to, this is listed as greenbelt - so it does exist, I just wonder if it's worth taking a punt now that the planning laws seem to be slackening.
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    I wouldn't want to guide you to spend your money on something that may not happen but speak with the local planners. I have always found them to be great if you liaise with them.
    There is a green belt field local to us that they are planning to put 150 affordable homes on, these are set at the £220k mark which of course the local do not want but we have been told it will go through.
    Living MY dream.
  • bartman100
    bartman100 Posts: 544
    edited January 2014
    VTech wrote:
    I wouldn't want to guide you to spend your money on something that may not happen but speak with the local planners. I have always found them to be great if you liaise with them.
    There is a green belt field local to us that they are planning to put 150 affordable homes on, these are set at the £220k mark which of course the local do not want but we have been told it will go through.
    That's harsh - I'm all for affordable housing but not at the expense of the greenbelt (hippocrite that I am).
  • BelgianBeerGeek
    BelgianBeerGeek Posts: 5,226
    That's because there are types of "green belt". The council may not let you build on it, but they are quite willing to do so themselves (or let a developer do so). Especially when the intended build is given a bit of window-dressing, becomes part of their "strategic plan" etc.
    Ecrasez l’infame
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    BelgianBeerGeek wrote:
    That's because there are types of "green belt". The council may not let you build on it, but they are quite willing to do so themselves (or let a developer do so). Especially when the intended build is given a bit of window-dressing, becomes part of their "strategic plan" etc.


    Thats the wording they keep using, the affordable housing strategic plan
    Living MY dream.
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    Even National Parks are prone to the odd development. Just up the road from me inside the boundary of the New Forest, some wealthy individual has built a new mansion complete with livery yard. Took about 2-3 years to build and on such a scale that it had one of those big cranes to build it ( like one sees building office blocks). It used to be a small house/bungalow on the site. Knowing how corrupt the New Forest District Council and Town Councils are in this area, I wouldn't mind betting that brown envelopes were handed over to a few councilors on the planning committee.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Even National Parks are prone to the odd development. Just up the road from me inside the boundary of the New Forest, some wealthy individual has built a new mansion complete with livery yard. Took about 2-3 years to build and on such a scale that it had one of those big cranes to build it ( like one sees building office blocks). It used to be a small house/bungalow on the site. Knowing how corrupt the New Forest District Council and Town Councils are in this area, I wouldn't mind betting that brown envelopes were handed over to a few councilors on the planning committee.


    You would be surprised at how they will work without the need to hand over any cash :wink:
    They absolutely love eco homes so if you can make the house efficient they will try and help it through so that they are seen to be aiding sustainable homes as well.
    Living MY dream.
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    VTech wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Even National Parks are prone to the odd development. Just up the road from me inside the boundary of the New Forest, some wealthy individual has built a new mansion complete with livery yard. Took about 2-3 years to build and on such a scale that it had one of those big cranes to build it ( like one sees building office blocks). It used to be a small house/bungalow on the site. Knowing how corrupt the New Forest District Council and Town Councils are in this area, I wouldn't mind betting that brown envelopes were handed over to a few councilors on the planning committee.


    You would be surprised at how they will work without the need to hand over any cash :wink:
    They absolutely love eco homes so if you can make the house efficient they will try and help it through so that they are seen to be aiding sustainable homes as well.

    In your area maybe. Ours definitely corrupt in some instances. A few years ago the local town council redeveloped a childrens play area in a designated green area which has a stream running through it. Part of the plan was to build 2 new foot bridges. The contractor for this happened to be the spouse of the mayoress. Corrupt or Conflict of Interest?
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    Sounds bad to me.
    Living MY dream.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 41,174
    There's a presumption against inappropriate development in green belt but a single property with sympathetic design may well be deemed acceptable.

    Land will always be cheaper to buy when it doesn't have a consent and the harder it is likely to be to get a consent the cheaper it will be. Once a piece of land has an outline consent it's value will increase greatly and you'll get less house for your money. It may well be worth a chat with a local planning consultant to get their assessment on the chances of getting a consent, it may cost a couple of grand (although just a brief assessment of the odds could be less) but it could potentially save you a fortune.

    Other things to consider are:-

    How easy / expensive will it be to get services into the plot? Will you have to use potentially more expensive oil / bottled gas rather than mains gas?

    Can you get a decent access?

    Are you prepared to spend money on professional fees (could be £10k or more)?

    If you get turned down for planning are you prepared to appeal (can be very expensive even if you win!)?

    It's a risk / reward game, the reward being you could get your dream home at a reasonable price.
  • bartman100
    bartman100 Posts: 544
    Pross wrote:
    There's a presumption against inappropriate development in green belt but a single property with sympathetic design may well be deemed acceptable.

    Land will always be cheaper to buy when it doesn't have a consent and the harder it is likely to be to get a consent the cheaper it will be. Once a piece of land has an outline consent it's value will increase greatly and you'll get less house for your money. It may well be worth a chat with a local planning consultant to get their assessment on the chances of getting a consent, it may cost a couple of grand (although just a brief assessment of the odds could be less) but it could potentially save you a fortune.

    Other things to consider are:-

    How easy / expensive will it be to get services into the plot? Will you have to use potentially more expensive oil / bottled gas rather than mains gas?

    Can you get a decent access?

    Are you prepared to spend money on professional fees (could be £10k or more)?

    If you get turned down for planning are you prepared to appeal (can be very expensive even if you win!)?

    It's a risk / reward game, the reward being you could get your dream home at a reasonable price.

    Good advice - thanks Pross. It's a bit of a pipedream at the moment but, if you never investigate then you'll never know.
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,402
    Do you have to own the land to apply for planning on it??
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    laurentian wrote:
    Do you have to own the land to apply for planning on it??


    I don't think so but why would you ?
    If it went through you can bet you won't get the land for the same price.
    Living MY dream.
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,402
    VTech wrote:
    laurentian wrote:
    Do you have to own the land to apply for planning on it??


    I don't think so but why would you ?
    If it went through you can bet you won't get the land for the same price.

    That's just a question of timing.
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    Pross wrote:
    Are you prepared to spend money on professional fees (could be £10k or more)?

    I think the question should be are you prepared to spend the money on professional fees, however much that might be and not get the approval.
  • Simon_Rhino
    Simon_Rhino Posts: 66
    as a Town Planner & development consultant myself I'd say you've had some good and some bad advice on here! I'd be looking at what Pross said for the best of it, although would have to say that the "it's only one dwelling, what harm would it do" argument doesn't tend to do very well with Local Planning Authorities and the underlying national & local planning policy & guidance which despite what some may think isn't very encouraging for development on Green Belt land. Having said that, it wouldn't be the first time an agent had confused actual designated 'Green Belt' with 'land outside a defined settlement boundary that happens to be green in colour'

    Obviously I'm bound to suggest you get a bit of professional help if you think you might want to take things forward, but for the sake of a couple of hundred quid appraisal you could save yourself a whole heap of trouble & money.

    good luck; when it works you'll wonder why so few people give it a go!
  • bartman100
    bartman100 Posts: 544
    Simon_Rhino wrote:
    as a Town Planner & development consultant myself I'd say you've had some good and some bad advice on here! I'd be looking at what Pross said for the best of it, although would have to say that the "it's only one dwelling, what harm would it do" argument doesn't tend to do very well with Local Planning Authorities and the underlying national & local planning policy & guidance which despite what some may think isn't very encouraging for development on Green Belt land. Having said that, it wouldn't be the first time an agent had confused actual designated 'Green Belt' with 'land outside a defined settlement boundary that happens to be green in colour'

    Thanks Simon, appreciate your advice. I think my first port of call is to find a few plots and call the local council Planning office to see who I might be able to tap up...I mean ask for advice! What I keep coming back to is this: a site that once housed a dwelling, usually a farm building of some sort, may be a better bet. Even better, where a building is still in existence, even in a dilapidated form. Need to be careful that I wouldn't get stuck where it can only be reinstated to its original intended use, i.e. agricultural.
    Simon_Rhino wrote:
    Obviously I'm bound to suggest you get a bit of professional help if you think you might want to take things forward, but for the sake of a couple of hundred quid appraisal you could save yourself a whole heap of trouble & money.

    good luck; when it works you'll wonder why so few people give it a go!

    Agreed - I'm quite risk averse so I would always proceed with caution.
  • Simon_Rhino
    Simon_Rhino Posts: 66
    Hopefully without unfairly disparaging the staff of your local Council, my experience is that you're very likely to be told 'no chance' where there may in fact be scope to do something - whether its natural (small c) conservatism, a lack of creative vision or just plain old 'envy planning' you'll be dealing with people who probably spend much of the day saying 'no' and it seems to be their default setting.

    A route often used is to buy, demolish & replace an existing property as starting from scratch is very difficult. That said, there are probably millions of (potential) plots that comply with relevant policy & guidance but sit empty because nobody thinks they'd get permission.

    its can be a fairly fine line between not taking the first 'no' as a final answer but not throwing away every penny you've got on a pipe dream.

    good luck
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,964
    Simon_Rhino wrote:
    Hopefully without unfairly disparaging the staff of your local Council, my experience is that you're very likely to be told 'no chance' where there may in fact be scope to do something - whether its natural (small c) conservatism, a lack of creative vision or just plain old 'envy planning' you'll be dealing with people who probably spend much of the day saying 'no' and it seems to be their default setting.

    A route often used is to buy, demolish & replace an existing property as starting from scratch is very difficult. That said, there are probably millions of (potential) plots that comply with relevant policy & guidance but sit empty because nobody thinks they'd get permission.

    its can be a fairly fine line between not taking the first 'no' as a final answer but not throwing away every penny you've got on a pipe dream.

    I've worked on a project that did just that. A ruined little cottage on GB land became a 4-bed house; IIRC you can extend by up to 2/3rds of the original volume of the original building. We needed more than that so a large chunk was sunk into the ground. Took a couple of years to get permission but eventually the planners supported it. As for unused plots, I suspect that a lot of it is down to property values in those areas not being sufficient to justify the developers taking a punt.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition

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