Can a worn chain be responsible for this ?

Serious Cat
Serious Cat Posts: 489
edited September 2013 in Workshop
My derailleurs , chain, cassette , shifters, brakes, bottom bracket and compact cranks are all from the 5700 105 series components. The mileage on my 10 speed chain is currently 2987 and the park tool chain stretch tool is showing a full 1% of stretch.Normally the shifting is super slick but last week I took my back wheel off to give it a thorough cleaning and degreasing of the cassette. I fitted the back wheel on and now im experiencing when I shift from the front 50 ring to the inner 34 ring the chain falls off about 7 times out of 10. My front derailleur is super clean and lubricated and this intermittent issue has become a right pain. No limit screws have been touched in any way and im puzzled by how a formerly super slick set up is now intermittently throwing the chain.

Could this be in any way related to a worn 10 speed chain , with nothing having been adjusted or changed in any way I cant think of any other related cause.
This serious internet site..............I serious cat

Comments

  • marcusjb
    marcusjb Posts: 2,412
    Sounds like the dirt was keeping it all going.

    Are you running the drivetrain into the ground and then planning to replace everything? Fine if you are, but if not, you're going to end up with an expensive shopping trip sometime soon.

    You should never let a chain get to .75% either on a chain measuring tool, or more accurately, with a ruler. Your cassette will certainly be worn and your chainrings won't be thanking you either.

    Does a worn chain mean the chain should drop more often? Not sure. I can feel when a chain is reaching the end of it's life - the shifting is not quite as slick and precise.

    Adjust the limits on the FD and stop it falling off - and then look at getting a new chain and cassette, and hopefully not chainrings.
    Stuff about riding a bike a long way
  • smoggysteve
    smoggysteve Posts: 2,909
    Is your rear wheel seated properly? Loosen off the QR and make sure it is sat correctly within the lugs and re-tighten. Also, when you removed the cassette (if you did) for cleaning, did you put the spacer back on the cassette? If that was missing it could explain the poor gear changes.
  • smoggysteve
    smoggysteve Posts: 2,909
    BTW, less than 3000 miles and you have a worn chain. That is VERY premature.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,002
    SmoggySteve wrote:
    BTW, less than 3000 miles and you have a worn chain. That is VERY premature.

    Very dependent on weather conditions & average terrain (ie amount of shifting). More than 3000 and there is a big risk of damaging cassette too.
  • antfly
    antfly Posts: 3,276
    .75 is ok for a chain but it should be replaced before 1%, using a ruler for proper accuracy. It if was worn it's more likely to not change to the small ring rather than come off, IME. Tighten the low limit screw anyway.
    Smarter than the average bear.
  • smoggysteve
    smoggysteve Posts: 2,909
    If you are getting chain wear under 3k miles, you aint maintaining your running gear very well. Anyone who suggests its down to shifting is deluded. grit and dirt wear chains not shifting. If you clean and lube a chain correctly, even modern thinner chains, they should last up to 5k miles easily. So if you get early wear you can blame noone but yourself.
  • Serious Cat
    Serious Cat Posts: 489
    Thanks for the replies.

    What I am mystified by is that there were no issues before the wheel was taken off for cleaning. What is the technique you guys use upon refitting that ensures the rear wheel is seated properly ?
    This serious internet site..............I serious cat
  • smoggysteve
    smoggysteve Posts: 2,909
    Serious Cat wrote:
    Thanks for the replies.

    What I am mystified by is that there were no issues before the wheel was taken off for cleaning. What is the technique you guys use upon refitting that ensures the rear wheel is seated properly ?

    Put it on the smallest cog before removal. ~This makes it easier to put the wheel back on in the right gear and prevent the chain falling off again.

    When you have the wheel seated in the stays. Give the wheel a sharp thump on the top of the tyre just to make sure its seated correctly before tightening. Last, check the brakes to rim alignment. Do they align to the braking surface?

    This has always been the way I do it and never had a drama
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    Most likely explanation is that your bottom limit screw was sitting on a piece of debris that was standing the derailleur in a bit, and now you've cleaned it off.

    Wind the screw in a bit and forget about it. This chain wear stuff is nonsense anyway; at this point you may as well run it for another 5k miles; it'll be fine.
    - - - - - - - - - -
    On Strava.{/url}
  • Serious Cat
    Serious Cat Posts: 489
    Absolutely maddening this is proving to be, cleaned my chain using the park tools cleaner and lubed it before wiping excess off. Sprayed front and rear derailleurs with wd 40. Took bike out on a wee spin with chain sitting on the 23 cog in a 12-25 rear cassette. Did the change to inner cog and all was fine, did it another 7 times and all was good and I was thinking I am onto something and next 3 times the chain fell off.

    This doesn't make sense to me at all.
    This serious internet site..............I serious cat
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,002
    SmoggySteve wrote:
    If you are getting chain wear under 3k miles, you aint maintaining your running gear very well. Anyone who suggests its down to shifting is deluded. grit and dirt wear chains not shifting. If you clean and lube a chain correctly, even modern thinner chains, they should last up to 5k miles easily. So if you get early wear you can blame noone but yourself.

    Wipe and lube fine, but there is no way I'm going to clean the chain on my commuter every day or even every week. I'd rather replace the chain (roughly) every 3k and cassette every 9k. Even without my precious time, it's cheaper by the time you've bought all the extra cleaner & lube anyway.
  • Serious Cat
    Serious Cat Posts: 489
    Chain only falls off when Im riding it , if I have it on bikestand the shifts are fine, what could be cause of this ?
    This serious internet site..............I serious cat
  • smoggysteve
    smoggysteve Posts: 2,909
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    SmoggySteve wrote:
    If you are getting chain wear under 3k miles, you aint maintaining your running gear very well. Anyone who suggests its down to shifting is deluded. grit and dirt wear chains not shifting. If you clean and lube a chain correctly, even modern thinner chains, they should last up to 5k miles easily. So if you get early wear you can blame noone but yourself.

    Wipe and lube fine, but there is no way I'm going to clean the chain on my commuter every day or even every week. I'd rather replace the chain (roughly) every 3k and cassette every 9k. Even without my precious time, it's cheaper by the time you've bought all the extra cleaner & lube anyway.

    You don't have the time to give your chain a quick wipe with a chap rag and stick a bit more oil on (no more than 5 minutes) at least ONCE a week? My you must be very busy, how do you find time to cycle, eat, go to the toilet, breathe .......
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,002
    SmoggySteve wrote:
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    SmoggySteve wrote:
    If you are getting chain wear under 3k miles, you aint maintaining your running gear very well. Anyone who suggests its down to shifting is deluded. grit and dirt wear chains not shifting. If you clean and lube a chain correctly, even modern thinner chains, they should last up to 5k miles easily. So if you get early wear you can blame noone but yourself.

    Wipe and lube fine, but there is no way I'm going to clean the chain on my commuter every day or even every week. I'd rather replace the chain (roughly) every 3k and cassette every 9k. Even without my precious time, it's cheaper by the time you've bought all the extra cleaner & lube anyway.

    You don't have the time to give your chain a quick wipe with a chap rag and stick a bit more oil on (no more than 5 minutes) at least ONCE a week? My you must be very busy, how do you find time to cycle, eat, go to the toilet, breathe .......

    You didn't read the first 4 words. I do this about weekly, the chain gets gunked up and I can't be bothered giving it a thorough clean because I'd rather be cycling, eating, going to the toilet, breathing, and I get about 3k out of the chain. Clearly the roads are a lot cleaner where you live.
    And I still think mashing the gears wears the chain faster.
  • crikey
    crikey Posts: 362
    Ignore the 'replace your chain at x amount of wear' idiots. Just adjust the front derailleur so it doesn't happen.

    Before 2012, people used to run chains for years and years and years, replacing the chain and cassette when they were truly worn out. Now some bright spark has come up with the chain measuring device and all the internet numpties think that it's true.
  • smoggysteve
    smoggysteve Posts: 2,909
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    SmoggySteve wrote:
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    SmoggySteve wrote:
    If you are getting chain wear under 3k miles, you aint maintaining your running gear very well. Anyone who suggests its down to shifting is deluded. grit and dirt wear chains not shifting. If you clean and lube a chain correctly, even modern thinner chains, they should last up to 5k miles easily. So if you get early wear you can blame noone but yourself.

    Wipe and lube fine, but there is no way I'm going to clean the chain on my commuter every day or even every week. I'd rather replace the chain (roughly) every 3k and cassette every 9k. Even without my precious time, it's cheaper by the time you've bought all the extra cleaner & lube anyway.

    You don't have the time to give your chain a quick wipe with a chap rag and stick a bit more oil on (no more than 5 minutes) at least ONCE a week? My you must be very busy, how do you find time to cycle, eat, go to the toilet, breathe .......

    You didn't read the first 4 words. I do this about weekly, the chain gets gunked up and I can't be bothered giving it a thorough clean because I'd rather be cycling, eating, going to the toilet, breathing, and I get about 3k out of the chain. Clearly the roads are a lot cleaner where you live.
    And I still think mashing the gears wears the chain faster.

    I never suggested you had to remove it and give it a deep clean every week either so enough on not reading on. Most dirt I am sure you agree works its way in over time. If you get rid of it before it has chance to ingrain and wear into the chain links you will have a longer lasting chain.
  • smoggysteve
    smoggysteve Posts: 2,909
    crikey wrote:
    Ignore the 'replace your chain at x amount of wear' idiots. Just adjust the front derailleur so it doesn't happen.

    Before 2012, people used to run chains for years and years and years, replacing the chain and cassette when they were truly worn out. Now some bright spark has come up with the chain measuring device and all the internet numpties think that it's true.

    +1. I have got the same chain on my Via Nirone that came with it when I bought it 2 years ago. I have done thousands of km on it and it is not clicking, jumping or misfeeding. It works as well as the day I got the bike. I have had 3 cassettes with it, mainly me fiddling about with ratios than any sort of wear. I know that unless it suddenly disintegrates it will be good for 1000s more kms.
  • antfly
    antfly Posts: 3,276
    Serious Cat wrote:
    Chain only falls off when Im riding it , if I have it on bikestand the shifts are fine, what could be cause of this ?
    Have you tightened the low limit screw yet, if not why not?
    Smarter than the average bear.
  • Serious Cat
    Serious Cat Posts: 489
    Googled the limit screws for the 105 front derailleur and it says it is the one on the left, I had turned it clockwise about 1.5 turns and the chain is still falling off when I am riding the bike but doesn't do it on the bikestand.
    This serious internet site..............I serious cat
  • antfly
    antfly Posts: 3,276
    Try Tightening it until it won't change down then loosen it off a bit until it does.
    Smarter than the average bear.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,002
    crikey wrote:
    Ignore the 'replace your chain at x amount of wear' idiots. Just adjust the front derailleur so it doesn't happen.

    Before 2012, people used to run chains for years and years and years, replacing the chain and cassette when they were truly worn out. Now some bright spark has come up with the chain measuring device and all the internet numpties think that it's true.

    This internet numptie decided to change the chain regularly after damaging my 'equipment' when the 6k chain broke while climbing a hill - obviously it was my fault for not polishing it (the chain, not the equipment) every day.
    9 & 10 speed chains are definitely much less durable and I ran the same chain & cassette on a 7speed rigid MTB for 18 years before it broke, again while hill climbing.
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 16,522
    some things to try...

    have a really good look at the chain to make sure there are no bent plates or stiff links or protruding pins (fitting a kmc link so you can easily remove/refit helps with this and other cleaning/maintenance)

    inspect the chainrings for any bent/damaged teeth, make sure the chainring bolts are correctly tightened

    if there's a screw at the end of the front mech cage, is it done up properly

    make sure there's no side to side play in the cranks

    check that the rear mech cage rotates smoothly

    go through the complete front mech alignment and adjustment from scratch, instructions at http://techdocs.shimano.com

    also check the chain length is correct (instructions at same site)
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • Serious Cat
    Serious Cat Posts: 489
    I am leaving the bike with a tech guy tonight along with a new 5700 series chain and cassette and he will set everything up for me, I have also placed an order with wiggle for a K-Edge double chain catcher which is such a simple idea that looks like it will be an answer for dropped chains.
    This serious internet site..............I serious cat
  • pdw
    pdw Posts: 315
    Put the chain on the small chainring and biggest sprocket, then turn the lower limit screw until the FD just touches the chain, then back it off half a turn. Road vibration can easily cause the chain to be thrown occasionally if your set up is marginal.
  • patrickf
    patrickf Posts: 536
    pdw wrote:
    Put the chain on the small chainring and biggest sprocket, then turn the lower limit screw until the FD just touches the chain, then back it off half a turn. Road vibration can easily cause the chain to be thrown occasionally if your set up is marginal.
    This. There should be a mm or two between the inner cage and the chain when in this gear combination.

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