frame finishes

felix.london
felix.london Posts: 4,067
edited June 2013 in MTB general
One for the weight weenies;

Would an anodized frame weigh less then the same frame with a powder coat?

If so by how much?
"Why have that extra tooth if you're not using it?" - Brian Lopes

Votec V.SX Enduro 'Alpine Thug' 2012/2013 build

Trek Session 8
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Comments

  • cooldad
    cooldad Posts: 32,599
    Yes, about 4 inches.
    I don't do smileys.

    There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

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    Parktools
  • Holyzeus
    Holyzeus Posts: 354
    Yes, first google result says 100g
    Nicolai CC
  • bennett_346
    bennett_346 Posts: 5,029
    Because the first google result is always correct, yep.
  • felix.london
    felix.london Posts: 4,067
    Holyzeus wrote:
    Yes, first google result says 100g

    Kinda why I asked.

    100-250g seems to be the general consensus. Guess it depends how think the powder coat is.

    Looking at 2 identical frames - except the finish, 1 is powder coated, 1 is anodised

    and it claims more than 300g weight difference between the two. I presumed the lighter one was without shock included but maybe not
    "Why have that extra tooth if you're not using it?" - Brian Lopes

    Votec V.SX Enduro 'Alpine Thug' 2012/2013 build

    Trek Session 8
  • bennett_346
    bennett_346 Posts: 5,029
    I suppose it depends really on how many layers of powder coating there is.
  • I suppose it depends
    Yup.

    Also, a frame with no paint will be lighter don't ya know.
  • Northwind
    Northwind Posts: 14,675
    Yup, polished metal will be lighter. As long as you don't actually use polish, those grams of Mr Sheen add up
    Uncompromising extremist
  • The Rookie
    The Rookie Posts: 27,812
    Anodising adds next to naff all, paint can add upto 250g, powdercoat is a little heavier, so 300g sounds plausible.
    Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.
  • ilovedirt
    ilovedirt Posts: 5,798
    I suppose it depends really on how many layers of powder coating there is.
    You would never do more than one coat...
    Production Privee Shan

    B'Twin Triban 5
  • bennett_346
    bennett_346 Posts: 5,029
    Really? So explain to me how my powder coated frame has two different colours on it?
  • Kowalski675
    Kowalski675 Posts: 4,412
    ilovedirt wrote:
    I suppose it depends really on how many layers of powder coating there is.
    You would never do more than one coat...

    Entirely depends on the colour and finish you're coating. One of my bike frames is pwdercoated metallic silver, then a silver metalflake, then candy teal green, then clear lacquer. I have wheels that are three coats (silver base, candy top coat then lacquer or two coats (gloss black then a clear lacquer with silver metalflake in. Even basic flat colours will sometimes be lacquered too.

    Anodising is just a chemical surface coating and doesn't add any weight (not that could be measured by any normal domestic scales anyway) and is only a few microns thick.
  • ilovedirt
    ilovedirt Posts: 5,798
    Oh, I thought the whole point of powder coating was that you get a durable finish without having to do multiple coats and lacquering...?
    Production Privee Shan

    B'Twin Triban 5
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    Powder coating and paint is solely there to make (aluminium) frames look nice. There is no other reason for it. Anodized and a simple bare finish is lighter, and will look better after a few scuffs.
  • Kowalski675
    Kowalski675 Posts: 4,412
    ilovedirt wrote:
    Oh, I thought the whole point of powder coating was that you get a durable finish without having to do multiple coats and lacquering...?

    All depends what colours, finishes and effects you want. For regular flat colours (like a gloss black, for example you don't need to lacquer (and in some cases, like white, lacquer can make it look yellowy), but you need lacquer on metallics and candies (and candies need a base coat).
  • Kowalski675
    Kowalski675 Posts: 4,412
    supersonic wrote:
    Powder coating and paint is solely there to make (aluminium) frames look nice. There is no other reason for it. Anodized and a simple bare finish is lighter, and will look better after a few scuffs.

    A bare ally finish will soon look very dull unless it's lacquered or clear anodised.
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    Indeed, but the dull coating is aluminium oxide, basically a ceramic which protects the frame.
  • nicklouse
    nicklouse Posts: 50,675
    Focus left their carbon frames raw as it saved 300g.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown
  • bennett_346
    bennett_346 Posts: 5,029
    300g is a pretty significant amount. That kind of saving would cost you hundreds if done elsewhere. Puts it into perspective how much heavier car bodys are once painted.
  • Kowalski675
    Kowalski675 Posts: 4,412
    supersonic wrote:
    Indeed, but the dull coating is aluminium oxide, basically a ceramic which protects the frame.

    Most people won't want a dull grey frame though.

    Strive AL comes with the option of a lacquered bare ally frame:

    strive-al-8_c1048.jpg

    With the weather that passes for British summers, the dirt you've picked up after a mile will weigh more than 300g.
  • The Rookie
    The Rookie Posts: 27,812
    Yeah but bike will stay weigh 300g MORE won't it!
    Currently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    And proves my point - is purely cosmetic.
  • Kowalski675
    Kowalski675 Posts: 4,412
    Yeah but bike will stay weigh 300g MORE won't it!

    A whole 300g. I'm really going to notice that...
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    I would, but I have a 20lbs XC bike ;-). Some people are happy to pay £50 on a new stem to shed 20g, or argue about the weight difference in SLX and XT brakes. Paint adds nothing positive to the way a bike rides, and is cheaper not to use it!
  • felix.london
    felix.london Posts: 4,067
    supersonic wrote:
    Some people are happy to pay £50 on a new stem to shed 20g, or argue about the weight difference in SLX and XT brakes. Paint adds nothing positive to the way a bike rides, and is cheaper not to use it!
    300g is a pretty significant amount. That kind of saving would cost you hundreds if done elsewhere

    I'm sold
    "Why have that extra tooth if you're not using it?" - Brian Lopes

    Votec V.SX Enduro 'Alpine Thug' 2012/2013 build

    Trek Session 8
  • mcnultycop
    mcnultycop Posts: 2,143
    My raw Scandal just looks like it means business. Same with the LBS owner's Nicolaii, nicely industrial. Can I strip the paint of my fork lowers to match...?
  • Northwind
    Northwind Posts: 14,675
    Not a good idea with fork lowers... Magnesium alloy, much more reactive than aluminium alloys. There's some coatings that work for it, like the rockshox keronite but if you just leave the metal exposed to air you can see it oxidising literally overnight.
    Uncompromising extremist
  • Kowalski675
    Kowalski675 Posts: 4,412
    supersonic wrote:
    I would, but I have a 20lbs XC bike ;-). Some people are happy to pay £50 on a new stem to shed 20g, or argue about the weight difference in SLX and XT brakes. Paint adds nothing positive to the way a bike rides,

    So we're back to anodising - looks pretty and weighs nothing, lol. Best of both worlds.
  • felix.london
    felix.london Posts: 4,067
    Bought;

    http://www.bikester.fr/328811.html

    Seems like a great price.

    After discounts and delivery about £60 more than the Titus El Guapo and for that I get a 12mm rear axle, a black frame, direct mount front mech and... It's anodised! :D
    "Why have that extra tooth if you're not using it?" - Brian Lopes

    Votec V.SX Enduro 'Alpine Thug' 2012/2013 build

    Trek Session 8
  • Kowalski675
    Kowalski675 Posts: 4,412
    Don't know what it is, but it looks nice - love the stealth blacl on black logo.
  • felix.london
    felix.london Posts: 4,067
    Yep. This is the 300g heavier/€200 cheaper powder coat version

    http://www.bikeunit.de/fahrradteile/rahmen/votec-vsx-enduro-165-mm-rahmen-schwarz-matt/333980.html

    Doesn't look as good and anyway - luckily for me - was out of stock or else I'd have to have saved the €200 and bought that one instead...happy days
    "Why have that extra tooth if you're not using it?" - Brian Lopes

    Votec V.SX Enduro 'Alpine Thug' 2012/2013 build

    Trek Session 8