handbuilts and spoke tension problems.

xscreamsuk
xscreamsuk Posts: 318
edited July 2012 in Workshop
Bought some handbuilt wheels which I got in March, been a lovely set of wheels. Bike is in at LBS for pre Etape service and on checking the wheels the chap there who is also a wheelbuilder tells me spoke tension is incorrect in the rear, and it's almost a rebuild job to get it correct. I hadn't noticed it go out of true at all, only done around 600 miles in it.

Original wheelbuilder offers a warranty of his work, lbs guy says it should be fine to ride on. I know nothing about wheelbuilding! Do I send it back to the original guy bearing in mind the new guy has had a fiddle with it? 3 weeks till I fly to France so would like it correct before then.

Will chat more with new guy when I pick it up today, don't want to get in the middle of a battle between the two guys. I do think it's genuine concern from new guy as he doesn't know who built the wheels and they are hundreds of miles apart.

Comments

  • gilesjuk
    gilesjuk Posts: 340
    Incorrect by how much?

    Everyone has their opinions on spoke tension, many hub and rim makers quote a maximum. So long as you're not beyond the maximum and the spoke tension is enough to stop them coming loose then there usually shouldn't be a problem.

    It is more important that the spokes are fairly evenly tensioned to stop specific spokes being under strain more than others.

    When Mark Beaumont was going around the world he had a wheel rebuilt after spokes broke. The person making the rim used lower than usual tensions (obviously with some nipple threadlock compound) as being on the low side can be better than too high.

    So there's no 100% correct answer to what is the correct spoke count.
  • gilesjuk
    gilesjuk Posts: 340
    Here's the reference to the Mark Beaumont wheel build story:

    http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=46335
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,273
    I don't see how getting it correct would be a complete rebuild job. It's a matter of losening all the spokes, retensioning/dishing and truing, it should cost anything between 10 and 30 pounds.
    You can send them back to the guy who built them, but remember sending a parcel costs around 12 pounds... so... I don't know.
    BTW, if you live in London give me a shout
    left the forum March 2023
  • xscreamsuk
    xscreamsuk Posts: 318
    Have contacted original builder to see if he recommends any action by him. I appreciate that there will be differences between builders ideas etc, I will ask as to how low etc when I collect today. I suspect I will be happy to ride it as it is,
  • xscreamsuk
    xscreamsuk Posts: 318
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    I don't see how getting it correct would be a complete rebuild job. It's a matter of losening all the spokes, retensioning/dishing and truing, it should cost anything between 10 and 30 pounds.
    You can send them back to the guy who built them, but remember sending a parcel costs around 12 pounds... so... I don't know.
    BTW, if you live in London give me a shout

    I know they were built with sapim lasers and sils alloy nipples, new guy said spokes were difficult to turn, could this be down to the nipples. I suspect they were built deliberately at the lower tension, I didn't notice it being out of true when spun on the bike frame.

    Am learning more by reading, thanks for the offer ugo, but nowhere near London, up in Sheffield.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,273
    xscreamsuk wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    I don't see how getting it correct would be a complete rebuild job. It's a matter of losening all the spokes, retensioning/dishing and truing, it should cost anything between 10 and 30 pounds.
    You can send them back to the guy who built them, but remember sending a parcel costs around 12 pounds... so... I don't know.
    BTW, if you live in London give me a shout

    I know they were built with sapim lasers and sils alloy nipples, new guy said spokes were difficult to turn, could this be down to the nipples. I suspect they were built deliberately at the lower tension, I didn't notice it being out of true when spun on the bike frame.

    Am learning more by reading, thanks for the offer ugo, but nowhere near London, up in Sheffield.

    They were difficutl to turn as he probably used some threadlock compound, as you would...
    Tension depends on the rim, one tends to build on the upper side of the allowed tension for the rim.
    Mavic advises 900 N for their Open PRO, but doing so means having the NDS coming loose fairly easy, so they normally get built at 1000N or even 1100 pushing it... that said I have seen an Open PRO built at 1500 N and it wasn't happy...

    In my experience laser and revolution spokes come loose more easily than chunkier spokes... I bet you have low tension on the NDS... no big deal but best to get it sorted, before the spokes start breaking
    left the forum March 2023
  • xscreamsuk
    xscreamsuk Posts: 318
    Result is they are going back to the guy who built them. He has been mpst helpful, he will do a free check and re tension etc if needed, quotes me these tensions 120kgf rear drive side and 100kgf front throughout. They will be going back there should they need any future work as well.

    Bike back from service had poorly indexed gears, couldn't get into the 28 which was a nuisance on hilly club ride last evening, sorted on the ride by a little adjustment. V clunky elsewhere, was told rear mech might need replacement, but it shifted fine before it went in!
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,273
    xscreamsuk wrote:
    Result is they are going back to the guy who built them. He has been mpst helpful, he will do a free check and re tension etc if needed, quotes me these tensions 120kgf rear drive side and 100kgf front throughout. They will be going back there should they need any future work as well.

    Bike back from service had poorly indexed gears, couldn't get into the 28 which was a nuisance on hilly club ride last evening, sorted on the ride by a little adjustment. V clunky elsewhere, was told rear mech might need replacement, but it shifted fine before it went in!

    You might have found a dodgy lbs... A rear dérailleur will typically last twenty years minimum... And that includes the cheap ones. I have just replaced a 1980 super record dérailleur as there was a bit of play in the rivets, but it could have easily done another 10 years... Luckily a friend had a spare 1981 one... :D
    left the forum March 2023
  • xscreamsuk
    xscreamsuk Posts: 318
    I've come to that conclusion, or maybe they had a bad day? Rode with another lbs owner last night, he's offered to have a look if needed.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    "a meh will last 20 year even the cheap ones". Most do but I have a 6 year old chorus mech with enough play to cause misshifting. A dodgy mech I suppose.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Mavic do specify that 700- 900N drive side don't they, but that is untenable on almost all road hubs even the shimano one with a ~20mm drive side flange-centre spacing, as that would leave NDS tension at ~470N (at mavic max tension and with a 105 hub). Set at the DS at 700N and your wheel will not last long. Spokes will unwind like that and therefore spoke fatigue and breakage as well a true issues, meaning threadlock has to be used which make truing quite difficult. At that tension truing will be inevitable.

    Also NDS spoke set at 500N or less an go slack/ near slack when accelerating hard so the wheel will flex a it more under these conditions. This is liekly to lead to premature spoke failure. Higher tensions have to be used 1100N is quite sensible but on Campy 11 speed hubs (DS flange spacing 15-17mm 1200-1300N needs to used often to get the tension on NDS spokes in the 600N region. Threadlocking is fine but threadlocking at low NDS tension is only asking for trouble down the line IMO.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,273
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    "a meh will last 20 year even the cheap ones". Most do but I have a 6 year old chorus mech with enough play to cause misshifting. A dodgy mech I suppose.

    I suspect the carbon plate wears out quicker than the alloy ones, which might be the reason
    left the forum March 2023
  • xscreamsuk
    xscreamsuk Posts: 318
    A quick tweak myself last night with cable tension and the rear mech is shifting perfectly,
  • JamesB
    JamesB Posts: 1,184
    A quick tweak myself last night with cable tension and the rear mech is shifting perfectly

    so what does this say about your LBS and advice re wheel spoke tension being wrong ? :(
  • xscreamsuk
    xscreamsuk Posts: 318
    JamesB wrote:
    A quick tweak myself last night with cable tension and the rear mech is shifting perfectly

    so what does this say about your LBS and advice re wheel spoke tension being wrong ? :(

    It says that I am correct in sending them back to the wheelbuilder, and I shall not be returning to this lbs. I can only assume lbs were pushing for me to buy a new rear mech and have a wheel re built.

    Good job I checked the brake calipers as well, the rear was pretty loose on collection.
  • xscreamsuk
    xscreamsuk Posts: 318
    Happy to say that original wheelbuilder has checked and tweaked the wheels, no major problems but sorted for dishing and v minor truing. Rear mech has been problem free since I indexed it properly

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