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kangarougekangarouge Posts: 196
edited June 2012 in Pro race
Does anyone agree that Rodriguez, Basso and Scarponi didn't deserve to win the Giro as they raced far too conservatively? ( I appreciate Rodriguez won a stage) Wheras Cunego, De Gendt, Possovivo and Hesjedal were much more deserving of a winners jersey. They raced much more aggresively, often being involved in breaks or in the case of the latter, staying with the best of the climbers on the high mountain stages.

Am I just:
a) Being harsh b) Talking rubbish c) Just not understanding of race tactics?

Posts

  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,782
    kangarouge wrote:
    Does anyone agree that Rodriguez, Basso and Scarponi didn't deserve to win the Giro as they raced far too conservatively? ( I appreciate Rodriguez won a stage) Wheras Cunego, De Gendt, Possovivo and Hesjedal were much more deserving of a winners jersey. They raced much more aggresively, often being involved in breaks or in the case of the latter, staying with the best of the climbers on the high mountain stages.

    Am I just:
    a) Being harsh b) Talking rubbish c) Just not understanding of race tactics?

    c) mostly

    J-Rod was in the top 5 7 times. He was always towards the front of the race. Basso and Liquigas played the tactic they could, ie, wear everyone out and hope they crack while Basso keeps going (Hello Astana friends!) Scarponi did a few attacks.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Tom BBTom BB Posts: 1,001
    haha, I've just noticed Iain's signature :-)
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 20,525
    bit of c, but I agree with you in the most part. But it's becoming relatively common to loose a shot at victory by not risking loosing 2nd or third...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,782
    Thing is, I think it's easy to sit on the sofa and think "attack", but when you're on the rivet, it's easy to think you should attack, quite something else to do it.

    Another thing with the giro is that super steep climbs aren't really good at producing attacking riding. It's all about survival, which I appreciate.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • greasedscotsmangreasedscotsman Posts: 7,224
    Alot of the mountain stages were ridden flat out, it's easy to ask why didn't anyone attack, but how do you do that if you're already riding flat out?

    I'm not sure what Rodriguez or Scarponi could have done to win the race. They would never have had the freedom that De Gendt was given on the Stelvio stage or Cunego was given a couple of times. Best they could do was try and gain a few seconds here and there in the last few kms. And to be fair to Rodriguez, he very nearly did win. Basso never really had the legs, he didn't win beacuse he wasn't good enough.
  • greasedscotsmangreasedscotsman Posts: 7,224
    iainf72 wrote:
    Another thing with the giro is that super steep climbs aren't really good at producing attacking riding. It's all about survival, which I appreciate.

    Be interesting to see if the Tour with it's "easier" route produces more attacking racing.
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 8,612
    no body really knew where everyone else was.

    ryder did seize his chances.... I think a lot of people guessed Basso wasn't going to deliver and there was a fair amount of talk about that prior to the giro.

    Jrod just couldn't deliver a killer blow in the high mountains and was limited to ficking whatever wheel he was on in the last k which didn't give him the time he needed... I don't think any of them could really have done much more... they were all fairly equal and marked ecvh other out. no one could slip away BUT the lower order GC riders could hence de gendt.

    Jrod tried to do something on the mortirolo... couldn't get away on the steep stuff there..his domain

    its was just a high tempo lock down where they all just ground each other to pieces... and it suited ryder or at least effected him the least... I don't agree that that the rode for 2nd, 3rd 5th whatever on GC... in fact the opposite

    when it came to stevilo they all sacrificed their GC chances to pile the pressure on garmin AND it was the right thing to do.... Ryder really had to dig in to save his giro and Garmin did the right thing getting CVV in that break!

    Scarponi [and LIQ?] missed out on the podium because they took a risk by not riding to cut down the gap to de gendt and instead banked all on the possibility ryder was going to blow a gasket in the final... thats not a conservative position at all. sky rode a bit


    it was a hard race.. only one bonnafied go slo transition stage?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 20,525
    I appreciate that this is all easy to say and totally hypothetical, I can't help thinking that if J-rod had attacked 750 or 1000m out instead of 500 he might have grabbed 30secs instead of 20, which over the 3 weeks might have been enough

    ....might have been enough, I know...

    @ midi - There came a point on the Stelvio where it was becoming more and more likely (if not clear) that De Gendt was going to knock Scarponi off the podium - he DID attack Ryder in the last few kms so he wasn't totally on the rivet, even if he was close to it. It was also looking unlikely that Ryder was going to make the top of the Stelvio without cracking enough to drop below Scarponi - that was the time for( or for the Lampre DS to tell him) to go...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 8,612
    ddraver wrote:
    I appreciate that this is all easy to say and totally hypothetical, I can't help thinking that if J-rod had attacked 750 or 1000m out instead of 500 he might have grabbed 30secs instead of 20, which over the 3 weeks might have been enough

    ....might have been enough, I know...

    @ midi - There came a point on the Stelvio where it was becoming more and more likely (if not clear) that De Gendt was going to knock Scarponi off the podium - he DID attack Ryder in the last few kms so he wasn't totally on the rivet, even if he was close to it. It was also looking unlikely that Ryder was going to make the top of the Stelvio without cracking enough to drop below Scarponi - that was the time for( or for the Lampre DS to tell him) to go...

    but when do you go

    scarponi gave it everything and jrod kept coming over the top 20m from the line with everyone else closing in as he died on the line

    gone earlier? maybe but could have ended up going backwards IUAM
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 20,525
    well there's the risk....

    It doesnt matter what position J-Rod comes if Scarponi is right on his wheel, which most of the time he was....
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ProssPross Posts: 24,303
    Disagree totally with the first post. Basso and Scarponi did all they could, J Rod won a couple of stages. Pozzo was a bit of a disappointment but again I think the last couple of days showed he just couldn't do any more. The only one of the top placed riders who showed real attacking intent was de Gent, if only he'd had a better team trial. I don't think it was anything to do with negative tactics, it was more that the last few days of the race had the toughest stages and everyone knew they would have to hold something back then when it came to it they were all on the limit when riding tempo.
  • greasedscotsmangreasedscotsman Posts: 7,224
    Pross wrote:
    The only one of the top placed riders who showed real attacking intent was de Gent, if only he'd had a better team trial.

    But if Vacansoleil had ridden a better time trial, De Gendt would have not gained anywhere near the same amount of time on the Stelvio stage. As soon as he attacked, Hesjedal would have been straight on his wheel, just like he was when Rodriguez went on the Mortirolo.
  • thamacdaddythamacdaddy Posts: 590
    They all knew Ryder could TT, he played his hand perfectly well and no one took it to him enough to take his ace card away. JRod actually did a much better final TT than many were expecting but he needed a good 2 minute cushion going into it to make a proper race of it. It was very much like Schleck last year. Everyone knew Evans was going to toast him in the final TT and yet he couldn't put enough time into him before hand, this has to be a case of he simply couldn't rather than he actually had the tactic of taking his chances in the TT.

    I haven't seen Basso dominate or attack at all since his return from ban so when people get excited I keep hoping to see something new. In the end the majority of the time he does (or his team does) exactly what the best tactic is for him to be in a chance of winning, keep the pace high and get the other riders to blow. Once that doesn't work I am not sure what else he has nowadays.

    Ryder deserved his win, he was there everytime someone asked a question and took the pace on when he needed to for setting up his ace card at the end. Only a decent attack from JRod on prior stages to take the seconds off him or a problem for Ryder in the final stage would have given him the win. Anyone saying he didn't deserve to win it I think is talking with a bit of sour grapes. it's the same as when people talk about Cav on a known sprint finish where you have a hill, you would be crazy not to try and drop him before the final sprint, in the Giro when it came down to the end the other competitors were crazy not to try and put more time into Ryder. Whether they had it in them or not to do I guess only they know. You can't fault any of them if they rode on their limit and simply couldn't do what was needed.
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,782

    I haven't seen Basso dominate or attack at all since his return from ban so when people get excited I keep hoping to see something new. In the end the majority of the time he does (or his team does) exactly what the best tactic is for him to be in a chance of winning, keep the pace high and get the other riders to blow. Once that doesn't work I am not sure what else he has nowadays.

    So you missed the 2010 Giro then? And the 2009 Giro del Trentino?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • kangarougekangarouge Posts: 196
    Many thanks to all for the comments. I had a feeling it might be my lack of experience and knowledge that might be wanting. However, the various replies have already helped me to understand this top level racing more fully and I'm now seriuosly looking forward to watching the Dauphine and the Tour immensely. C'mon Wiggins in the latter!
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