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deceased Fathers life insurance policies.

ademortademort Posts: 1,924
edited July 2012 in The cake stop
My Father died in April 2011 and according to my Sister only had life insurance policies totalling four thousand pounds which went to the cost of the funeral. However i,m convinced my Fathers insurance policies were for much more than that. Does anybody know how can i find out what policies he had and to what value. It,s difficult for me as i live in the Netherlands i have no idea who to ask. Things have turned rather strange since my Fathers death. My Sister now meets my Brother for a drink on a regular basis and before my Dad died they would never had sat in the same room together. Also both seem to have new found wealth which has not gone unnoticed by many. On the other hand neither call me anymore and i seem to have been put to one side. I cant help but think that somethings going on. My Dads will indicated that everything be split 3 ways but i dont think it has by a long way.
Ademort
ademort
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  • Cleat EastwoodCleat Eastwood Posts: 7,508
    i have no idea ademort but a quick google search brought up this, you may have seen it - if that was me i'd be checking his bank details

    http://www.wikihow.com/Find-Out-if-Some ... nce-Policy
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  • Wirral_paulWirral_paul Posts: 2,476
    Your first port of call probably needs to be to go to Probate Court in your father's county. You will almost certainly need to take legal representation in the UK given that you are in Holland. Its likely to be pretty complex and you really need to do this digging properly.

    http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/probate

    Not my area of speciality but i work for a Financial Adviser company - and wont for that reason go into much detail. The above is a starting point for you though
  • AggieboyAggieboy Posts: 3,996
    You mention a Will.; This help? -

    Shortly before he died last October, my grandfather told me I was named in his will. I have heard nothing since.

    The executors have refused my requests to let me see the will.
    Is there some way I can get hold of a copy?



    Simon Moon from This is Money replies: It is possible to obtain a copy of a will.
    Assuming that probate has been granted, you can visit First Avenue House, 42-49 High Holborn, London WC1 6NP (tel: 020 7947 6939 ) which is the principal probate registry for England and Wales, and make a search in person.
    Alternatively, you can visit the probate registry that covers your district. Brighton is one of 11 locations that have a district registry.
    There are also 18 sub-registries and you'll find a full list of both with addresses and opening times on the HM Courts Service website.
    It is possible also to request a copy of a will by writing to The Postal Searches & Copies Dept, York Probate Sub-Registry, 1st Floor, Castle Chambers, Clifford Street, York, YO1 9RG, giving the full name, address and date of death of the deceased, stating what you require and enclosing the £5 fee. Requests are not accepted by phone
    If probate is due to be granted but you are not sure when, you could set up what is known as a standing search.
    This is valid for six months and you will automatically receive a copy of the will if probate is granted within that time.
    The charge for a standing search is £5. Cheques should be made payable to HMCS.


    Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/expe ... z1w6hlMU00
    "There's a shortage of perfect breasts in this world, t'would be a pity to damage yours."
  • jim453jim453 Posts: 1,360
    I imagine that the best course of action is, almost certainly, to ask a bunch of bored randoms on a cycling website.
  • msmancuniamsmancunia Posts: 1,457
    I'd start by establishing who the Executors of your dad's will were - am presuming it might be one/both of your siblings or all of you? Then I'd engage a UK solicitor who specialises in probate - they know so much about it and the sensitivities that exist sometimes in families, even if it's just for a quick chat to establish what's been done with the estate so far. He would probably be able to check the paperwork that was filled in by the Executors laying out what the estate was, when they applied for probate.

    From what I know, it's the Executors role to "pay the debts and liabilities of the deceased, identify and correctly distribute assets to the beneficiaries etc providing there is money in the estate. Failure to fulfil this liability could result in the Executor being held financially liable for any loss resulting from a breach of their duty under the Administration of the Estates Act 1925, even if the mistake is made in good faith".

    That's from my solicitor and is handily at my bedside at the moment! I'm having a horrific battle with my brother over my parents estate (although for different reasons to you) and my sympathies are with you. Death really can bring the worst out in people, and it's stress that you don't need when you're trying to come to terms with a bereavement. My advice would be to think not about your siblings, but about what your parent(s) would think. They would no doubt want things to be fair. Good luck!
    Commute: Chadderton - Sportcity
  • ademortademort Posts: 1,924
    My Brother-in-law was the executor of the will and the only information in the will was that my Fathers estate was to be divided equally between the 3 children. It also stated that there were 3 bank accounts and the sum total of these accounts was split equally. However there was no mention at all as to my Fathers life insurance policies even though i know he had them.
    Whats worse is when i ask my sister about it she just gets aggresive and nasty and says he only left 4 thousand pound and i,m to keep my nose out. I had to sign some insurance forms after my fathers death there were 3 alltogether however she never showed me the forms until the taxi i,d booked to take me to the train station arrived at the door. The forms were put on the table folded over so i could not see what was on them. I could only see where i had to sign and the date. When i asked her to send the forms over to me to read first she got very aggresive and said if i dont sign these forms she will be lumbered with the bill for the funeral director and she could not pay the bill.She was very nervous at the time and after i signed the forms she seemed over the moon. as i say i really think i,ve been had big style.The fact that my sister and brother now seem to be best of friends and have some new found wealth leads me to believe that somethings going on.
    Ademort
    ademort
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  • team47bteam47b Posts: 6,424
    I can understand just how you feel, but unless money is the most important thing in your life, let it go. Take the moral high ground, rise above the censored , or it won't do you any good.

    But still carry on and find out what actually happened for your own peace of mind and if your suspicions are proved correct MAKE SURE they know that you know, job done. Then you, at least, will feel better.
    my isetta is a 300cc bike
  • CiBCiB Posts: 6,098
    It's not just the money though, it's the family loyalties & ties being apparently stretched beyond what's reasonable. If the OP has suspicions he should follow them through.

    Is it possible to contact the solicitors who handled the will directly? Who was named as executor(s) of the will? There should be somewhere a basic itemised listing of what accounts were closed, what balances were transferred, who was paid what etc. If the solicitor can't answer these I'd take it higher. It's one thing being diddled out of a few hundred quid but quite another for what you thought were close family members to [apparently] do this, and to refuse to elaborate when asked perfectly reasonable questions about it.
  • AggieboyAggieboy Posts: 3,996
    I think the worst of it is that your father's wishes may not have been adhered too. ademort why don't you confront them with your suspicions and tell them you are going to start making enquiries? It doesn't sound as if you're on good terms anyway. They'll know they will be on shaky ground should you start enquiries and things may be resolved without the need.
    "There's a shortage of perfect breasts in this world, t'would be a pity to damage yours."
  • GiantMikeGiantMike Posts: 3,139
    Ask the executor for the policy numbers of the policies you know about. Ask to see the paperwork you signed. If he hasn't got it, ask him who the policies were with and contact them to get a copy of the returned forms.

    Contact the insurers, explain who you are and ask them how much the policies were for.

    As your sister's husband is the executor of the will I believe he has a legal obligation to ensure the will is executed correctly. If the 'estate' was to be split equally 3 ways, then the life insurance policies form part of that estate. If he's been up to no good and gets a material benefit from knowingly allowing the will to be incorrectly executed I'd imagine you'd have grounds for legal redress.

    If I were him and had nothing to hide I'd let you see all the paperwork. If he won't, there's a reason. It's not your sister's place to produce this information, it's the executor's.
  • shouldbeinbedshouldbeinbed Posts: 2,660
    I'd strongly suggest you seek professional legal advice & contact the local police with your concerns.
  • shouldbeinbedshouldbeinbed Posts: 2,660
    Double post
  • vitesse169vitesse169 Posts: 420
    I'd strongly suggest you seek professional legal advice & contact the local police with your concerns.


    +1. On first look it seems that fraudulent acts may have been committed = criminal acts. Speak to police, speak to the firm of solicitors who held the will and question closely the executor of the will, letting him know that if HE as executor has not 'executed' the will correctly & fairly, HE will be on his way to hell in a handcart. As previously stated, if it's a few hundred quid, not to worry - but if it's a few hundred thousand quid, thats criminal.
    Best of luck, there's nothing worse than a family at war...
  • ademortademort Posts: 1,924
    I,m going back to the U.K. in July so will seek legal advice then. I asked my brother in law about the insurance policies when my Dad died but he said he didnt know anything and told me to ask my sister. She was adamant i dont need to see anything the policies only cover the funeral costs and if i didnt believe her i could ask my brother who had seen the insurance policies. I did mention going . into the union office but my sister was again adamant that she will sort it and i,m to keep away from there aswell.My Father still has an asbestos claim but i was told it would take 2 years after his death before we would hear anything.As i say i have no contact with my sister or brother at the moment but cant help thinking that i,ve been had. If i were to go to the police and voice my concerns could i be charged with anything if it turned out that the insurance policies were for 4 thousand pounds and no offence had been commited?If i were to hire a P.I. what would i expect to pay for there services?
    Ademort
    ademort
    Chinarello, record and Mavic Cosmic Sl
    Gazelle Vuelta , veloce
    Giant Defy 4
    Mirage Columbus SL
    Batavus Ventura
  • msmancuniamsmancunia Posts: 1,457
    You wouldn't be charged with anything just for voicing your concerns - the fact that they aren't being open enough with you is enough to cause suspicion so it's a valid enquiry. I'd start with a lawyer - they can do so much investigating and because some of the information will already be in the public domain, they could do some of it without your siblings even knowing I would have thought. As the Executor, your brother in law shouldn't "know nothing" - he should know everything. The duty of an Executor is to tie everything up - from credit cards, to paying the window cleaner.
    Commute: Chadderton - Sportcity
  • vitesse169vitesse169 Posts: 420
    msmancunia wrote:
    You wouldn't be charged with anything just for voicing your concerns - the fact that they aren't being open enough with you is enough to cause suspicion so it's a valid enquiry. I'd start with a lawyer - they can do so much investigating and because some of the information will already be in the public domain, they could do some of it without your siblings even knowing I would have thought. As the Executor, your brother in law shouldn't "know nothing" - he should know everything. The duty of an Executor is to tie everything up - from credit cards, to paying the window cleaner.


    Again +1... don't leave it any longer, get the thing moving. If you leave it much longer, the legals will ask why you left it so long. You want this resolved asap...
  • Redhog14Redhog14 Posts: 1,377
    google a lawyer in the UK today in the area who specialises in Debt Recovery matters, they are could be best placed to get started, the sooner the better and you don't need to be in the UK to instruct a UK lawyer - as mentioned before this could cost a couple of hundered quid, you will either get some more dosh or at least peace of mind. It sounds as if the relationship with your sister and brother isn't going anywhere anyway.
  • shouldbeinbedshouldbeinbed Posts: 2,660
    ademort wrote:
    I,m going back to the U.K. in July so will seek legal advice then. I asked my brother in law about the insurance policies when my Dad died but he said he didnt know anything and told me to ask my sister. She was adamant i dont need to see anything the policies only cover the funeral costs and if i didnt believe her i could ask my brother who had seen the insurance policies. I did mention going . into the union office but my sister was again adamant that she will sort it and i,m to keep away from there aswell.My Father still has an asbestos claim but i was told it would take 2 years after his death before we would hear anything.As i say i have no contact with my sister or brother at the moment but cant help thinking that i,ve been had. If i were to go to the police and voice my concerns could i be charged with anything if it turned out that the insurance policies were for 4 thousand pounds and no offence had been commited?If i were to hire a P.I. what would i expect to pay for there services?
    Ademort
    Contact legal people today to start looking at not only yr fathers affairs but also the nouveau rich family members. IF there is something fishy (from what you've written it sounds dodgy) you'll already have them panicked & in effect laundering any money they might have stolen, cos that is what it is, to cover it up & keep you from a) finding it & b) your rightful share.

    The executor is the liable one & 'I don't know, ask your sister,she's doing it' is gross failure on his part & ?legal on hers to execute a will she's not appointed to do so.

    Not only legal issues for them to consider but frankly it's disrespectful to your father's memory to behave in such a cloak & dagger (at best) manner with you and potentially disregard his final wishes.
  • msmancuniamsmancunia Posts: 1,457
    Not only legal issues for them to consider but frankly it's disrespectful to your father's memory to behave in such a cloak & dagger (at best) manner with you and potentially disregard his final wishes.

    This +1. The thing that stops me walking away from my issues and washing my hands of it all is that my mum and dad worked hard for their money, and wanted us both to have it. As long as I do what I do with them in mind, and am aware that I'm not doing anything that they would be disappointed in, my consience is clear. I don't think my brother could say the same thing.

    The other thing to bear in mind is that if you do decide to go down the legal route, you don't need a big name solicitor. Get in touch with a local, suburban firm. Probate, convenancing, etc are their bread and butter, and they are extremely good at it. They are also cheaper than big firms, and you can ask if you can be invoiced as you go along to spread the cost, which is what I'm doing. If it does go to court, and you win, then you can also ask for your costs to be recovered by them too.
    Commute: Chadderton - Sportcity
  • Wirral_paulWirral_paul Posts: 2,476
    ademort wrote:
    I had to sign some insurance forms after my fathers death there were 3 alltogether however she never showed me the forms until the taxi i,d booked to take me to the train station arrived at the door. The forms were put on the table folded over so i could not see what was on them.

    Oh censored - seems pretty obvious that those forms werent what she told you they were!! You may well just have signed away a fortune as a victim of identity fraud, but you need to get right to the bottom of this and find out what those forms are.

    You could contact your brother in law about full details of all the life policies, grant of probate etc. Personally though - i'd get a copy of the Grant of Probate yourself before deciding where to go with this.

    http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/probate/copies-of-grants-wills

    You would need to complete a PA1S form which is on here as a pdf file
    http://hmctscourtfinder.justice.gov.uk/HMCTS/GetForm.do?court_forms_id=739

    If there's an estate there of more than "a few thousand pounds" then its time to take what you have to a solicitor and potentially get the police involved. Thats a decision to be taken with your solicitor though
  • bianchimoonbianchimoon Posts: 3,942
    been through something very similar, police won't be interested, it's a civil matter, up to you to take civil action if you think your siblings have been up to no good, you'd need to be 'very' sure you stand to gain, as getting lawyers involved could leave you well out of pocket
    All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
  • StillGoingStillGoing Posts: 5,207
    been through something very similar, police won't be interested, it's a civil matter, up to you to take civil action if you think your siblings have been up to no good, you'd need to be 'very' sure you stand to gain, as getting lawyers involved could leave you well out of pocket

    It isn't a civil matter. This, if true, is a clear attempt to defraud a person out of their rightful inheritance and involves the elements of theft. There are cases of civil dispute which the police will have no interest in, but not in something like this. They will however, expect the complainant to have some evidence to support the allegation rather than just turn up and say I think I've been the victim of fraud. Ask for copies of the will and all correspondence involved in settling your fathers will. That includes all documents signed by yourself and your siblings and the will executor. You want copies of all policies, shares and bank accounts for you or your appointed solicitor to work from. Your solicitor can obtain experian checks on your siblings that should reveal any wealth and sources of income along with any debts. Once you have that information and can identify evidence indicating an offence has been committed, take it to the police Credit and Checque fraud unit. They should be only too happy to try and arrange for your siblings a brief holiday somewhere compact and bijoux. Don't worry about the signature issue; the explanation is quite plausible to show coercement to sign a document you had not had opportunity to read.

    As relations are already beyond turning, I'd also tell them what you're doing, but on no account accept any belated pay-off if they come clean. If you do you commit an offence of concealing a crime.

    Good luck.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • bianchimoonbianchimoon Posts: 3,942
    Philthy 3, as you're either a lawyer, barrister, judge, member of the CPS or have direct experience of a family inheritance dispute i bow to you superior knowledge in this matter on the other hand if you're just giving an uniformed opinion? OP as I said be certain you can afford expensive legal fees in a civil court case as I've been through something very similar. For informed advice, this aint the place to be!
    All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
  • StillGoingStillGoing Posts: 5,207
    Sadly too many lazy arsed/hard pressed coppers come out with the "civil dispute" excuse for issues that are too difficult or time consuming to resolve. Civil dispute is only where the police have no powers. In something like this, there is an allegation of theft and all the relevant points of obtaining property belonging to another, dishonestly with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of it, and the retention or realization of it. It could be that the OP's father simply didn't include him/her as a beneficiary so there wouldn't be any dishonesty.

    Solicitors are expensive, but there is only one way the siblings are going to cooperate and that is with the threat of legal action hanging over them. If they have committed theft, any assets they have accumulated since the will may well be viewed by the courts as ill gotten gains and be forced to hand them over as proceeds of crime.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • bianchimoonbianchimoon Posts: 3,942
    i agree, plus, if there's little chance of a successful prosecution they are even less inclined to get involved, all about results/targets these days not necessarily doing what's right by the public
    All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
  • shouldbeinbedshouldbeinbed Posts: 2,660
    i agree, plus, if there's little chance of a successful prosecution they are even less inclined to get involved, all about results/targets these days not necessarily doing what's right by the public

    I'm not a lawyer but my job brings me into contact with all sides of the legal system. You're right but for the wrong reasons, Trials are fearsomly expensive things to run and barristers don't come cheap. The CPS have to do it all out of the public purse, they are not given a magic blank cheque and are accountable for the money they spend - which has been slashed back hugely recently as with the rest of the public sector (apart from politicians salaries, expenses and pensions naturally) They would, rightly, get utterly slaughtered if they took every case to court regrdless of the chance of success and in effect p***ed millions of pounds of taxpayers money away on cases with slim, little or no chance of success.

    sadly this is modern justice It is about using the too scant resources to their least bad (I hesitate to say best) end.

    however the story Ademort presents is worthy of investigation and if the Police's initial investigations and file were to prove a fraud of some significant scale then I have little doubt it would go forward.

    Ademort, credit and cheque fraud etc generally tend to be classified as Economic Crime nowadays.
  • ademortademort Posts: 1,924
    edited November 2012
    Here is a copy of the only document i recieved
    Ademort
    ademort
    Chinarello, record and Mavic Cosmic Sl
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  • GiantMikeGiantMike Posts: 3,139
    Could be geniune and accurate, or all the figures could be made up. However, it's evidence and you can use it as a basis for getting the correct figures from the bank and insurance companies to see if they are the same.
  • skyd0gskyd0g Posts: 2,540
    The document looks suspicious in a number of areas & smacks of errors & omissions to me, namely:

    Header from a legal organisation - ie Solicitors firm
    Money on person?
    List of separate Nat West Accounts (with account numbers)
    No other Bank / Building Society policies?
    Over-payments or debts to utilities: Gas, Electric, Water etc.
    No Visa / Access debts?

    Also, if your father had a number of life insurance policies, how did they end on the very neat figure of £3,500 exactly? & why not detailed separately with policy numbers and individual amounts?

    I get the feeling that this has been typed-up to fit with what you're being told, rather than the whole story.

    They could alternately say that 'the rest has been sent to Help the Hero's fund'....

    ...just my humble opinion. Hope you get to the bottom of it.
    As the estate is more than £5,000 they would need to file for Probate - you may get some answers by requesting a copy of your late fathers probate estate (when filed by the executors).
    Cycling weakly
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,629
    Was there no property of any kind? It just seems odd that the only assets were bank accounts and a life insurance policy. From the fairly neat match up of funeral costs against life policy that almost looks like one of those life policies taken out purely to cover funeral costs, it seems very low for a full life policy.
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