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Rigid and folding tyres, what's the differece?

DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
edited March 2011 in Commuting chat
I'm hoping Vorsprung answers this as he knows everything tyre related.

one rigid and one folding tyre on my bike.

What's the difference?
Food Chain number = 4

A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game

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  • jzedjzed Posts: 2,926
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    I'm hoping Vorsprung answers this as he knows everything tyre related.

    one rigid and one folding tyre on my bike.

    What's the difference?

    Weight (folder usually lighter) price (folder usually heavier), carrying ability (Nicely folded or over the shoulder)
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 50,613 Lives Here
    One will fold. The other won't.


    (No waaaaaay).

    It's to do with the the bead (beed?) I believe. One is made from wire, so hold it in a round shape, the other isn't, so it doesn't.
  • TheStoneTheStone Posts: 2,291
    One gets delivered to work in a small packet, the other turns up in a massive box, big enough to camp in.
    exercise.png
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,208
    If you're clever, you can fold a wire-bead (non-folding) tyre, or at least get it down to a size that you can get in a bag. Grab at opposite points and ... but that would be telling :twisted:
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • jongingejonginge Posts: 5,945
    One will hurt your thumbs a lot more...
    FCN 2-4 "Shut up legs", Jens Voigt
    Planet-x Scott
    Rides
  • lost_in_thoughtlost_in_thought Posts: 10,563
    jonginge wrote:
    One will hurt your thumbs a lot more...

    Which one?!

    My poor thumbs...
  • jongingejonginge Posts: 5,945
    jonginge wrote:
    One will hurt your thumbs a lot more...

    Which one?!

    My poor thumbs...
    Rigid.

    Also, damn your Tifosi rear wheel :lol:
    FCN 2-4 "Shut up legs", Jens Voigt
    Planet-x Scott
    Rides
  • Butterd2Butterd2 Posts: 937
    One will fold. The other won't.


    (No waaaaaay).

    It's to do with the the bead (beed?) I believe. One is made from wire, so hold it in a round shape, the other isn't, so it doesn't.

    One is wire the other kevlar.
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  • t4tomot4tomo Posts: 2,643
    rjsterry wrote:
    If you're clever, you can fold a wire-bead (non-folding) tyre, or at least get it down to a size that you can get in a bag. Grab at opposite points and ... but that would be telling :twisted:

    .......fold liek you fold up a kids pop up tent. :D
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  • DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    So one folds and one doesn't and that is it.

    No wonderous technology that demands a special name like 'Black-Chilli-Ultrimadillo-S-Pro-Race-3'

    Just simple one folds and one doesn't. That's a bit censored .

    I also feel a little foolish for asking the bike shop Man the same question and being greeted with a long pause and then subject change...

    Also I can't spell difference.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,208
    Ultremadillo vs. Sharktopus?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    :lol::lol::lol:
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • tgotbtgotb Posts: 4,714
    t4tomo wrote:
    .......fold liek you fold up a kids pop up tent. :D
    Ah, so that's how it's done :oops:

    Folding wire beaded tyre into three: 5 seconds
    Folding kids' tent: up to 15 mins, and have to wait until kids are in bed on account of all the swearing...
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,208
    tgotb wrote:
    t4tomo wrote:
    .......fold liek you fold up a kids pop up tent. :D
    Ah, so that's how it's done :oops:

    Folding wire beaded tyre into three: 5 seconds
    Folding kids' tent: up to 15 mins, and have to wait until kids are in bed on account of all the swearing...

    +1. We have a fold-up travel cot for the littl'un which operates on a similar principle - unzip the bag and it pops up in seconds; it takes about 20 minutes to cram the blasted thiong back into the bag when you're done. Tyres are a piece of p*ss in comparison.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • CiBCiB Posts: 6,098
    rjsterry wrote:
    +1. We have a fold-up travel cot for the littl'un which operates on a similar principle - unzip the bag and it pops up in seconds; it takes about 20 minutes to cram the blasted thiong back into the bag when you're done.
    You have to take the baby out first apparently. Simple mistake; it's not covered in the instructions. We've all done it.
  • Kieran_BurnsKieran_Burns Posts: 10,052
    tgotb wrote:
    t4tomo wrote:
    .......fold liek you fold up a kids pop up tent. :D
    Ah, so that's how it's done :oops:

    Folding wire beaded tyre into three: 5 seconds
    Folding kids' tent: up to 15 mins, and have to wait until kids are in bed on account of all the swearing...

    They ought to use that noise in place of the BLEEP machine on TV.

    It seems logical to me - that noise ALWAYS accompanies swearing

    @**&&%% (%$&%&% !"£&^!"%&"%
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  • HeadhuunterHeadhuunter Posts: 6,494
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    So one folds and one doesn't and that is it.

    No wonderous technology that demands a special name like 'Black-Chilli-Ultrimadillo-S-Pro-Race-3'

    Just simple one folds and one doesn't. That's a bit censored .

    I also feel a little foolish for asking the bike shop Man the same question and being greeted with a long pause and then subject change...

    Also I can't spell difference.

    As outlined earlier, weight is the major motivation to use folders. Weight on the wheel counts for about 4 times the weight elsewhere as it's "rotating weight". What I'm trying to say is saving 100 grammes from your tyre is like saving 400 grammes off your saddle or bars or wherever....
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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,208
    CiB wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    +1. We have a fold-up travel cot for the littl'un which operates on a similar principle - unzip the bag and it pops up in seconds; it takes about 20 minutes to cram the blasted thiong back into the bag when you're done.
    You have to take the baby out first apparently. Simple mistake; it's not covered in the instructions. We've all done it.

    I thought she was complaining a lot. Damn thing nearly takes your eye out when you 'release' it as well.

    @K_B I was just thinking the same thing :D
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • DonDaddyDDonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    So one folds and one doesn't and that is it.

    No wonderous technology that demands a special name like 'Black-Chilli-Ultrimadillo-S-Pro-Race-3'

    Just simple one folds and one doesn't. That's a bit censored .

    I also feel a little foolish for asking the bike shop Man the same question and being greeted with a long pause and then subject change...

    Also I can't spell difference.

    As outlined earlier, weight is the major motivation to use folders. Weight on the wheel counts for about 4 times the weight elsewhere as it's "rotating weight". What I'm trying to say is saving 100 grammes from your tyre is like saving 400 grammes off your saddle or bars or wherever....

    You'd think someone would have used that tid bit of advice in one of my wheel threads by now!

    Thanks.

    'Fulcrum Ice Gravity Zero' wheels and Attack/Force tyres it is then!
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • jejvjejv Posts: 566
    As outlined earlier, weight is the major motivation to use folders. Weight on the wheel counts for about 4 times the weight elsewhere as it's "rotating weight". What I'm trying to say is saving 100 grammes from your tyre is like saving 400 grammes off your saddle or bars or wherever....
    Hmm. Someone needs to do a few further maths mechanics modules. 8)

    Non-mathsy folks seem to get quite spooked by this rotating mass thing.

    If you're rolling a thin hoop along the ground (and it doesn't slip), it behaves as if it had twice the mass - but only when it's speeding up or slowing down.

    So, other things being equal (they usually aren't), a 100g difference between folding & wired tyres means that the bike behaves as if is 200g heavier going steadily up a hill (two wheels, right), and 400g heavier when accelerating on the flat (2 wheels, again).

    But you + bike have a mass of (say) ~70-100kg.

    So, off the lights, or in a breakaway, the extra mass is reducing your acceleration by ~(0.4/85) ~= 0.5%.

    You gotta be damn competitive for a 0.5% difference in acceleration to make a difference.

    Fat Marathon+ (950g) Vs Ultremo R.1 (180g) would make (4*(950-180/1000)/85) ~= 3.6% difference to acceleration.

    I'm slower than a very slow thing. But no-one gets me off the lights, even on the 18kg shopper with M+, if I pull away on 42/28.
  • jejvjejv Posts: 566
    CiB wrote:
    You have to take the baby out first apparently. Simple mistake; it's not covered in the instructions. We've all done it.
    Thanks for that. I knew we were going wrong somewhere.
  • HeadhuunterHeadhuunter Posts: 6,494
    jejv wrote:
    As outlined earlier, weight is the major motivation to use folders. Weight on the wheel counts for about 4 times the weight elsewhere as it's "rotating weight". What I'm trying to say is saving 100 grammes from your tyre is like saving 400 grammes off your saddle or bars or wherever....
    Hmm. Someone needs to do a few further maths mechanics modules. 8)

    Non-mathsy folks seem to get quite spooked by this rotating mass thing.

    If you're rolling a thin hoop along the ground (and it doesn't slip), it behaves as if it had twice the mass - but only when it's speeding up or slowing down.

    So, other things being equal (they usually aren't), a 100g difference between folding & wired tyres means that the bike behaves as if is 200g heavier going steadily up a hill (two wheels, right), and 400g heavier when accelerating on the flat (2 wheels, again).

    But you + bike have a mass of (say) ~70-100kg.

    So, off the lights, or in a breakaway, the extra mass is reducing your acceleration by ~(0.4/85) ~= 0.5%.

    You gotta be damn competitive for a 0.5% difference in acceleration to make a difference.

    Fat Marathon+ (950g) Vs Ultremo R.1 (180g) would make (4*(950-180/1000)/85) ~= 3.6% difference to acceleration.

    I'm slower than a very slow thing. But no-one gets me off the lights, even on the 18kg shopper with M+, if I pull away on 42/28.

    Yes, yes, I didn't say I was a maths guru.... All I know is what people have told me in the past. Another thing to consider is that folding tyres are designed for a racy/pacy ride environment, so whereas a "fat Marathon" may be made of compound X, designed largely to avoid puncture in a rubbish strewn urban environment, Ultremo R.1s will be made of softer compound Y to ensure lower rolling resistance whilst maintaining grip whilst cornering hard. Certainly I've noticed the ability to corner more confidently on "race" tyres. As for the weight reduction, 100g here, 200g there makes a difference at the end of a long club ride! Before you know it, you've saved half a kilo or more....
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  • vorsprungvorsprung Posts: 1,953
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    I'm hoping Vorsprung answers this as he knows everything tyre related.

    one rigid and one folding tyre on my bike.

    What's the difference?

    Everyone else has covered the main points

    For a pretty much direct comparison see this page

    http://www.conti-tyres.co.uk/conticycle ... hell.shtml

    There is a 23mm tyre there, the wire version costs £10 less and weighs 50g more
  • HeadhuunterHeadhuunter Posts: 6,494
    vorsprung wrote:
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    I'm hoping Vorsprung answers this as he knows everything tyre related.

    one rigid and one folding tyre on my bike.

    What's the difference?

    Everyone else has covered the main points

    For a pretty much direct comparison see this page

    http://www.conti-tyres.co.uk/conticycle ... hell.shtml

    There is a 23mm tyre there, the wire version costs £10 less and weighs 50g more

    Except that I personally never, ever pay list price for anything. Just wait til the sale are on and then buy a few at once. I have never paid more than about £20 for a folding tyre in my life and I use decent tyres... The key is not to buy things when you need them but buy them when they're cheap and keep them in stock...
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
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