Right hooked yesterday...
hmbadger
Posts: 181
Returning from the hills to South Manchester area via well known awful road. As usual there are some temporary traffic lights causing a long tail back. Going downhill, I'm switching from filtering left to filtering right. Whilst filtering right a car moves out from the standing traffic...no chance. Bounced down the road. Not too bad as I wasn't going that fast. Seem to be ok - couple of bumps etc (*).
Anyway, I'm never very happy filtering ton the right, but I get the impression on here and elsewhere that it is considered safer than left filtering.
(a) Anyone else happier left filtering (and being careful at all side roads)?
(b) When right filtering I was riding on chevrons in middle of road - about 2 metres wide. Presumably you're not supposed to do that - would that count against me in terms of determining who is at fault?
*Head hit the ground pretty hard after 1st bounce - hardly felt it as helmet took full brunt of the impact. I've been ambivalent about helmet. Not now, v.v. impressed - there is no way I would have just walked away from this tumble without the helmet. Anyway I'm more interested in views on the queries above than another helmet debate!
Anyway, I'm never very happy filtering ton the right, but I get the impression on here and elsewhere that it is considered safer than left filtering.
(a) Anyone else happier left filtering (and being careful at all side roads)?
(b) When right filtering I was riding on chevrons in middle of road - about 2 metres wide. Presumably you're not supposed to do that - would that count against me in terms of determining who is at fault?
*Head hit the ground pretty hard after 1st bounce - hardly felt it as helmet took full brunt of the impact. I've been ambivalent about helmet. Not now, v.v. impressed - there is no way I would have just walked away from this tumble without the helmet. Anyway I'm more interested in views on the queries above than another helmet debate!
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Comments
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a) Depends entirely on context.
b) Chevrons exist to prevent right-turning traffic and are not intended for use by traffic in normal circumstances. As it's not clear which way the car came from, hard to say whther you'd be penalised for being where you were. Chevrons are for protecting right-turning traffic though so if you contravene their use you're on sticky ground I'd have though.
</saloon bar law advice>0 -
I'm not sure that I have a general rule as I vary depending on the road that I am on.
I've noticed that on the wider roads where motorbikes are likely to be filtering then it seems to be a good idea to go up on the right, but in roads that are narrow or with frequent traffic islands then drivers seem more surprised by the filtering. The risk is the idiot who decides to do a u-turn without using any mirrors.
On roads with more bicycles then it does seem to be expected that you are coming up on the left so I tend to stay that side.
All of this relies on commuting the same roads day in day out to know which side to go for. Not so good for new roads or for road works.0 -
Hope you are okay m8.
I agree filtering is tricky for both sides. Sometimes its better to filter on the right than on the left - but whenever I'm doing it I try to be really, really careful, because cars wont be looking out for you0 -
Shouldn't do really. Driver should have mirror checked before moving. Of course you might have been in the blink spot of the mirrors (but that would be pretty unlikely for most cars). One question. Did you see if they were indicating to turn right? I think if you passed a car on the right that was indicating right then some of the blame might be assigned to you.hmbadger wrote:
Anyway, I'm never very happy filtering ton the right, but I get the impression on here and elsewhere that it is considered safer than left filtering.
(b) When right filtering I was riding on chevrons in middle of road - about 2 metres wide. Presumably you're not supposed to do that - would that count against me in terms of determining who is at fault?
The reason I feel safer filtering on the right is that there are less reasons for a driver to pull right suddenly than pull left.
Drivers my pull left for the following:
1. Left turn
2. Drop off passenger
3. Park
4. Lane change
The left turn and passenger drop off are particularly common in traffic in urban environments and are often done without indicators.
For the right
1. Right turn
2. Lane change
While these still do occur MOST drivers will actually indicate their intent before doing
either of these which gives you the advance warning you need to slow down. Don't pass a car if it is indicating on the side you are passing.
Mike0 -
He did say that he was indicating, but I think it was an indicate as you start to move type thing. I didn't have time to even touch the brakes. I'm annoyed because normally I'm v. cautious. Here I was going at a faster relative speed than I normally would (maybe 12-15mph) because there was such a wide space in middle of road.
But I reckon in a lot of standing traffic type situations that right hooking is a pretty realistic possibility.0 -
hmbadger wrote:He did say that he was indicating, but I think it was an indicate as you start to move type thing. I didn't have time to even touch the brakes. I'm annoyed because normally I'm v. cautious. Here I was going at a faster relative speed than I normally would (maybe 12-15mph) because there was such a wide space in middle of road.
But I reckon in a lot of standing traffic type situations that right hooking is a pretty realistic possibility.
Indication is a statement of intent, not a licence to do what you want. I've had a number of drivers say 'but I was indicating' when pulling out in front of me. They fail to understand that they should give way, in the same way that indicating to turn right does not give them the right to turn across oncoming traffic, they must give way. 'But I was indicating' is in fact code for 'You are only on a bike, you should give way to my car.'.0 -
Yeah I had a van driver almost mow me down last week on Farringdon Rd. He indicated and simply started to move into my lane. I got through before he cut me off but the moped rider behind got crunched. I went back and the driver was asking again and again "Did you see me indicate?" As if the flashing orange light gave him god given right to drive across other people's path.....
It's hard to know where to filter when passing a queue of traffic. On the left and you're vulnerable to passenger doors suddenly opening as perhaps some leaps out to buy a packet of fags or get some cash out of an ATM whilst the driver waits in the traffic. On the right and you're vulnerable to drivers suddenly getting bored of waiting and do a sudden U turn (that has certainly happened to me). On both left and right you're vulnerable to peds not looking as they walk between queuing cars...Do not write below this line. Office use only.0 -
The chevrons (ghost island) should be surrounded by either a solid or broken white line.
Solid Line: Do not enter unless it's an emergency.
Broken Line: Do not enter unless you can see it's safe to do so.
Bad Luck
FCN16 - 1970 BSA Wayfarer
FCN4 - Fixie Inc0 -
Lane discipline
133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.
Unequivocal.0 -
Where was it ? I'm from the area.
Bad luck - this is a tricky one, so glad you are not injured.
Drivers shouldn't turn without checking.
I was nearly taken off by someone in the opposite carriageway turning right across my path as I was filtering down the outside - she could clearly see me (2 Hope Vision 1's burning) but chose to turn into a gap, forcing me to stop fast.
She clearly had no idea. It's something you have to watch out for. I had a driver in a flat bed transit do a u-turn without indicating this morning whilst I was filtering down the outside of traffic. Busy but wide road, Fortunately I was far enough back to slow down, and as he reversed back, I passed in front of him and glared....0 -
Both times I've been "right hooked" on my motorbike, I have won my claims for damages.
You, as a responsible road user, are allowed to overtake stationary traffic, as long as it is safe to do so. However, you need to be mindful of the law and should not cross double-white or solid lines nor go the wrong way around traffic islands. Hatched lines or areas are visual road "divisions" which you are allowed to enter or cross if safe to do so.
Saying all the above, if you put yourself in a vulnerable position (ie filtering on the outside) you need to take extra care in case another road user does the unexpected (turn right suddenly) and depending on the exact circumstances, you may be found to be contributorilly negligent. In such a case, you will receive a % of the claim (so if you were 25% at fault, you will receive 75% of the value of your claim - once agreed). However, if you are filtering safely and within the law/Highway Code then the chances are you will win your claim 100%.1997 Gary Fisher Big Sur
2009 Scott Spark 60
2010 Ghost 5000
2011 Commencal Ramones AL1
2012 Commencal Meta AM10 -
Pufftmw wrote:as a responsible road user, are allowed to overtake stationary traffic, as long as it is safe to do so. However, you need to be mindful of the law and should not cross double-white or solid lines
That's what I thought. However...highway code wrote:You MUST NOT overtake
* if you would have to cross or straddle double white lines with a solid line nearest to you (but see Rule 129)
Rule 129
Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.
(Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26)
I can't find a definition for 'stationary vehicle' though. Does that mean cars stuck in a traffic jam, engines on etc are ok to overtake or does it mean a parked vehicle?
I ask because on my commute there's always traffic backed up from the roundabout and it would be quicker to pass them on the road than sit in traffic or to take the cycle path (which goes the wrong way at the roundabout).0 -
tarquin_foxglove wrote:Pufftmw wrote:as a responsible road user, are allowed to overtake stationary traffic, as long as it is safe to do so. However, you need to be mindful of the law and should not cross double-white or solid lines
That's what I thought. However...highway code wrote:You MUST NOT overtake
* if you would have to cross or straddle double white lines with a solid line nearest to you (but see Rule 129)
Rule 129
Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.
(Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26)
I can't find a definition for 'stationary vehicle' though. Does that mean cars stuck in a traffic jam, engines on etc are ok to overtake or does it mean a parked vehicle?
I ask because on my commute there's always traffic backed up from the roundabout and it would be quicker to pass them on the road than sit in traffic or to take the cycle path (which goes the wrong way at the roundabout).
Trouble is, if you're filtering on the right, tucked right up next to the cars, not only do you leave yourself no room to manoevre if someone suddenly decides to pull out, but you're in the "door zone". If I'm on a long straight stretch I tend to cycle right slap in the middle of the opposite lane as long as there's nothing coming. Far safer...Do not write below this line. Office use only.0 -
In general I agree with this strategy, however the door zone on the right in the traffic scenario isn't quite so risky. Mind you at the point when I've not got that much room to pass then I tend to stop filtering and wait unless things are completely deadlocked in both directions. In the deadlocked case I'll slow filter (just above walking pace) to get past the blockage.Headhuunter wrote:Trouble is, if you're filtering on the right, tucked right up next to the cars, not only do you leave yourself no room to manoevre if someone suddenly decides to pull out, but you're in the "door zone". If I'm on a long straight stretch I tend to cycle right slap in the middle of the opposite lane as long as there's nothing coming. Far safer...
Mike0 -
Headhuunter wrote:If I'm on a long straight stretch I tend to cycle right slap in the middle of the opposite lane as long as there's nothing coming. Far safer...
There is good visibility there and traffic coming the other way is quite light so it is do-able.
I'll give it a go.0 -
tarquin_foxglove wrote:Headhuunter wrote:If I'm on a long straight stretch I tend to cycle right slap in the middle of the opposite lane as long as there's nothing coming. Far safer...
There is good visibility there and traffic coming the other way is quite light so it is do-able.
I'll give it a go.
Just remember to look a long way ahead for oncoming traffic. When I first started riding like that I found the closing speed of oncoming traffic quite worrying. Always identify gaps on your left that you could slot back into easily.
Mike0 -
Blue Meanie wrote:The chevrons (ghost island) should be surrounded by either a solid or broken white line.
Solid Line: Do not enter unless it's an emergency.
Broken Line: Do not enter unless you can see it's safe to do so.
Bad Luck
I'm pretty sure they were broken white lines. It just seemed the safest place at that point - I don't particularly like the idea of riding on the other side of the road for as someone suggest.
the only lesson to draw is to keep relative speed low. In standing traffic it's just too common for cars to do unexpected things.0 -
fossyant wrote:Where was it ? I'm from the area.
Bad luck - this is a tricky one, so glad you are not injured.
Drivers shouldn't turn without checking.
I was nearly taken off by someone in the opposite carriageway turning right across my path as I was filtering down the outside - she could clearly see me (2 Hope Vision 1's burning) but chose to turn into a gap, forcing me to stop fast.
She clearly had no idea. It's something you have to watch out for. I had a driver in a flat bed transit do a u-turn without indicating this morning whilst I was filtering down the outside of traffic. Busy but wide road, Fortunately I was far enough back to slow down, and as he reversed back, I passed in front of him and glared....
Dreaded A6 - High Lane stretch down the hill to Hazel Grove. It was a serious tailback, hence people doing odd things to avoid half an hour wait.0 -
hmbadger wrote:Dreaded A6 - High Lane stretch down the hill to Hazel Grove. It was a serious tailback, hence people doing odd things to avoid half an hour wait.
Ah, a good 30-35 mph steady ride down that, so don't think your speed of 12-15 was excessive. Stupidly busy road to attempt a u-turn - lot's of it is hatched, so I'd bet the driver was breaking the highway code ?
1. Are you injured, 2. Is bike damaged. 3 Have you got their details ? Given visibility is pretty good on that road - nice and straight... Hmm was it in Highlane or the 'open fields' section between High Lane and Hazel Grove ?0 -
fossyant wrote:hmbadger wrote:Dreaded A6 - High Lane stretch down the hill to Hazel Grove. It was a serious tailback, hence people doing odd things to avoid half an hour wait.
Ah, a good 30-35 mph steady ride down that, so don't think your speed of 12-15 was excessive. Stupidly busy road to attempt a u-turn - lot's of it is hatched, so I'd bet the driver was breaking the highway code ?
1. Are you injured, 2. Is bike damaged. 3 Have you got their details ? Given visibility is pretty good on that road - nice and straight... Hmm was it in Highlane or the 'open fields' section between High Lane and Hazel Grove ?
Yes, I was being fairly cautious (but not cautious enough). I'm mostly OK - bump on elbow, neck is a bit stiff today - but will be fine. Yes, I have his detaills, and of a kind witness who even offered me a lift home. He was actually turning right to get to a house - he would have had to go down the wrong side of the road for a bit - which would have been OK as nothing coming and good visibility. Only thing he did wrong was not check mirror properly before turning out. That is enough of course.
It wasn;t as far down as the fields - just pas where MIddlewood way is I think.
Bike is in for a check - but I think it's OK as well. Don;t know how as I hit car a fair whack!0 -
Although I know filtering on the righthandside should be safer, I really don't like doing it.
Two reasons:
1) - a car can do a U turn at any point. That's a fairly dramatic change of direction and presents a filting cyclist without much chance of avoidance or mitigation. A car moving left can "squeeze" a filtering cyclist into the kerb, but I don't fear that as much as having the slab-side of a car to hit. A car won't do a U turn to the left - to make that sort of move requires a junction, where senses are heightened anyway. It's more predictable than a U turn.
2) I don't like riding towards oncoming traffic. I feel much more vulnerable to their swerves/sudden direction changes. Also if you do get knocked off (or swerve) when filtering on the right, you have traffic coming towards you that might not see you or might be going too fast to avoid you.0 -
W1 wrote:Although I know filtering on the righthandside should be safer, I really don't like doing it.
Two reasons:
1) - a car can do a U turn at any point. That's a fairly dramatic change of direction and presents a filting cyclist without much chance of avoidance or mitigation. A car moving left can "squeeze" a filtering cyclist into the kerb, but I don't fear that as much as having the slab-side of a car to hit. A car won't do a U turn to the left - to make that sort of move requires a junction, where senses are heightened anyway. It's more predictable than a U turn.
2) I don't like riding towards oncoming traffic. I feel much more vulnerable to their swerves/sudden direction changes. Also if you do get knocked off (or swerve) when filtering on the right, you have traffic coming towards you that might not see you or might be going too fast to avoid you.
This. Being able to bail onto the pavement is better than bailing into the oncoming traffic (as I found on Friday - even when the road is clear of traffic on your side, some halfwit can pull a U-turn from the other side of the road).1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
hmbadger wrote:fossyant wrote:Where was it ? I'm from the area.
Bad luck - this is a tricky one, so glad you are not injured.
Drivers shouldn't turn without checking.
I was nearly taken off by someone in the opposite carriageway turning right across my path as I was filtering down the outside - she could clearly see me (2 Hope Vision 1's burning) but chose to turn into a gap, forcing me to stop fast.
She clearly had no idea. It's something you have to watch out for. I had a driver in a flat bed transit do a u-turn without indicating this morning whilst I was filtering down the outside of traffic. Busy but wide road, Fortunately I was far enough back to slow down, and as he reversed back, I passed in front of him and glared....
Dreaded A6 - High Lane stretch down the hill to Hazel Grove. It was a serious tailback, hence people doing odd things to avoid half an hour wait.
Bad luck.
I didn't notice the temporary traffic lights, but I came off just before the Red Lion last Wednesday, on my commute into work. I did a somersault and bent my forks and frame.
I'm still not entirely sure what happened.
I'm now on PT for a while. :evil:
Well the islands are dashed: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?client=firefox-a&channel=s&hl=en&q=high+lane+cheshire&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=High+Lane,+Stockport,+Cheshire,+United+Kingdom&ll=53.363937,-2.067487&spn=0.000696,0.001623&t=h&z=190 -
anybody thought of just joining the Q? :shock:0
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billysmeg wrote:anybody thought of just joining the Q? :shock:
I tend to. The only exception being when the queue is far too long for me realistically to make the next phase of lights.
I constantly wonder why many people try to cram themselves into spaces that simply aren't there just to get closer to the ASL.Bianchi C2C - Ritte Bosberg - Cervelo R3
Strava0 -
Usually, when there are temporary traffic lights on that stretch of road, the traffic is pretty slow/stationary for the best part of a mile (maybe two).
Cycling home at rush hour uphill, my average speed is higher than the traffic there, and that is just without any roadworks.0 -
jimmypippa wrote:hmbadger wrote:fossyant wrote:Where was it ? I'm from the area.
Bad luck - this is a tricky one, so glad you are not injured.
Drivers shouldn't turn without checking.
I was nearly taken off by someone in the opposite carriageway turning right across my path as I was filtering down the outside - she could clearly see me (2 Hope Vision 1's burning) but chose to turn into a gap, forcing me to stop fast.
She clearly had no idea. It's something you have to watch out for. I had a driver in a flat bed transit do a u-turn without indicating this morning whilst I was filtering down the outside of traffic. Busy but wide road, Fortunately I was far enough back to slow down, and as he reversed back, I passed in front of him and glared....
Dreaded A6 - High Lane stretch down the hill to Hazel Grove. It was a serious tailback, hence people doing odd things to avoid half an hour wait.
Bad luck.
I didn't notice the temporary traffic lights, but I came off just before the Red Lion last Wednesday, on my commute into work. I did a somersault and bent my forks and frame.
I'm still not entirely sure what happened.
I'm now on PT for a while. :evil:
Well the islands are dashed: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?client=firefox-a&channel=s&hl=en&q=high+lane+cheshire&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=High+Lane,+Stockport,+Cheshire,+United+Kingdom&ll=53.363937,-2.067487&spn=0.000696,0.001623&t=h&z=19
Nasty! I think the traffic lights were just a weekend thing. That's the problem with that road - the amount of traffic is so high they do loads of work on a weekend (which is the only time I use it).
And I'd done what I could to minimise time on the A6 - inc the high road from Whaley B to Disley.0 -
W1 wrote:Although I know filtering on the righthandside should be safer, I really don't like doing it.
Two reasons:
1) - a car can do a U turn at any point. That's a fairly dramatic change of direction and presents a filting cyclist without much chance of avoidance or mitigation. A car moving left can "squeeze" a filtering cyclist into the kerb, but I don't fear that as much as having the slab-side of a car to hit. A car won't do a U turn to the left - to make that sort of move requires a junction, where senses are heightened anyway. It's more predictable than a U turn.
2) I don't like riding towards oncoming traffic. I feel much more vulnerable to their swerves/sudden direction changes. Also if you do get knocked off (or swerve) when filtering on the right, you have traffic coming towards you that might not see you or might be going too fast to avoid you.
Yep. I think this is it. I was actually knocked into the lane with oncoming traffic. Thankfully there was nothing coming. And there could have been - although obviously he couldn't have completed the manoevre, he could have come out enough to knock me down without going into the other lane.0 -
Bizarrely I passed 1/2 mile of standing traffic trying to get out of the Business Park I work in last evening. As is usual for these sterling designers, they put one entrance/exit to the Business Park, so if there is ANY delay getting out - there's a HUGE delay getting out.
At least if you're not on a bike anyway
So I passed on the outside of everyone all the way down to the front, where I was turning right anyway. After reading this thread I was paying at least as much attention to the road position, indicators and actions of the cars on my side as I was on oncoming traffic (which there was none as it turns out)Chunky Cyclists need your love too! :-)
2009 Specialized Tricross Sport
2011 Trek Madone 4.5
2012 Felt F65X
Proud CX Pervert and quiet roadie. 12 mile commuter0
