Front end grip

monkeylizard
monkeylizard Posts: 155
edited July 2010 in MTB beginners
No, not the usual "what's the best tyre?" question - more of a technique thing.

Since I put myself in hospital for a week a few months ago as a result of losing the front end, I've slowed right down when cornering. This has been made worse recently because of the trails drying out (being a noob, I thought everything would get really grippy in summer - no one told me that gravel and sand was more slippery than mud!).

So how do I get some speed back? I know every corner is different, but are there any general rules for maximising front end grip? Should I accept that the front end is going to slip occasionally (I spent a long time on road motorbikes where any front end slide is a very bad thing...)? Do I just need to thrash it, fall off and realise I'm not going to end up in A&E every time I bin it?

Please help in any way you can before riding like a complete jessie becomes force of habit. Thank you :)

Comments

  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    Try getting your weight further forward when cornering. This can be promoted by using a longer stem, lower bars, but especially by having the saddle further forward. Too many people use lay back saddles to their detriment.

    Also a bigger vlume, gripper front tyre, slightly less pressure, and running more fork sag.
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  • monkeylizard
    monkeylizard Posts: 155
    Thanks for the tips, SS.

    I can see the logic of getting more weight on the front when the ground conditions are grippy... but my brain is trying to convince me that when it's loose, gravelly, sandy type stuff putting more weight on the front will make it break away quicker...?
  • peter413
    peter413 Posts: 5,120
    Take your inside foot off the pedal and get ready to dab if needs be.

    Worked for me and now I can slide without even thinking about taking my foot off the pedal.

    It really helps to have trust in your tyres and know when they are going to grip and how much they should slide before you start worrying
    Transition Patrol
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  • The Northern Monkey
    The Northern Monkey Posts: 19,174
    good fork rebound setup can also help with berms/fast corners... you don't want the to spring right back at you as you enter a turn!
    Santa Cruz Butcher
  • Will Snow
    Will Snow Posts: 1,154
    More weight over the front tyre means more grip: you are pushing it into the floor more. You will get more grip this way, even if it feels a bit odd. If you want to get more weight over the front, you can try hovering your inside foot near the front axle, and dabbing if the front does slide. Watch any clips of Sam Hill on youtube to see him hanging on the front end of the bike, sliding the back out nut keeping the front in step. Also pads will help with confidence!
    i ride a hardtail
  • monkeylizard
    monkeylizard Posts: 155
    peter413 wrote:
    It really helps to have trust in your tyres and know when they are going to grip and how much they should slide before you start worrying

    So is some front wheel sliding acceptable or is any loss of grip a sign that I'm doing something wrong?
    The Northern Monkey wrote:
    good fork rebound setup can also help with berms/fast corners... you don't want the to spring right back at you as you enter a turn!

    I'm going to assume from this that it's better to have the rebound set too slow rather than too fast...?

    Thanks for the advice and taking the time to help, gents :)
  • Will Snow
    Will Snow Posts: 1,154
    front wheel drift is very difficult to master. Sometimes it will slip out (happened to peaty at lisbon downtown), and learning to catch it takes time. But sometimes when it goes, you are going to hit the deck
    i ride a hardtail
  • monkeylizard
    monkeylizard Posts: 155
    Will Snow wrote:
    More weight over the front tyre means more grip: you are pushing it into the floor more. You will get more grip this way, even if it feels a bit odd.

    Thanks, Will. I think this is the bit my brain is struggling with - seems a bit counter-intuitive. Guess I'll just have to get out there and prove my brain wrong :D
  • Will Snow
    Will Snow Posts: 1,154
    there is a fantastic sandy berm on my local hill that you can cut in and turn early on, and get a brilliant two wheel drift on. The best bit is if you dont catch it, then the berm will catch you so you cant really crash properly. Its brilliant to practice slides on, if you have a corner like that its good to session and get the practice in. Keep at it, tis very difficult!
    i ride a hardtail
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    you can pretty much put your entire weight on the handlebars and outside pedal, ignore what the back end is doing completely.
    If the front gets round, the back WILL follow, since it's attatched!
  • peter413
    peter413 Posts: 5,120
    yeehaamcgee wrote:
    If the front gets round, the back WILL follow, since it's attatched!

    Unless it falls off :lol:
    Transition Patrol
    Cube LTD 29er

    Glentress Trailfairies
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    :lol: well yes, but that's only happened to me twice!
  • stubs
    stubs Posts: 5,001
    If your cornering with your arms straight your sitting too far back. It happens to me I end up weight back losing the front end and I have to force myself forward till my arms are bent, my head is low and my elbows are sticking out. Almost like you are doing a press up on the bars.

    A lot of people corner with the outside pedal down and all the weight on that pedal. Personally I dont like that I try and keep my cranks almost level with the inside pedal forward and slightly higher. It might be wrong but seems to suit me I find I can catch a slide easier this way and easier to get pedalling after the bend.
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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    One major problem with not having the outside pedal down is that you can catch the inside one on the ground whilst leaning.
  • hbrashaw
    hbrashaw Posts: 286
    ^once when i was learning i had the inside pedal down on a fast tight off camber tarmac corner, pedal hit the ground, lifted tyres off sort of, i washed out and scraped along the tarmac- took all the skin off my leg and arm, glad i had a helmet on, other wise i'd have a big bald patch!
  • stubs
    stubs Posts: 5,001
    yeehaamcgee wrote:
    One major problem with not having the outside pedal down is that you can catch the inside one on the ground whilst leaning.

    Your right but I use Time ATAC pedals which seem to give a little bit more ground clearance than other pedals I have tried. I dont seem to ground the inside pedal very often so it suits me. Admittedly I dont go flying down hills very fast.
    Fig rolls: proof that god loves cyclists and that she wants us to do another lap
  • Tom Barton
    Tom Barton Posts: 516
    It is possible to use a poor (or alternative perhaps) technique, but what you'll find is that when you feel your at maximum speed, you will be stratching your head when others fly past yo with apparent ease. Practising the best techniques will pay you back in the long run. Generally speaking, outside foot down is better and will let you go faster.

    Check out you tube for a few magazine style tutorials - show quite nicely how getting your feet right gets you round the corners.

    Search for bikeskills.com
    Lapierre Spicy 516 XTR custom (2013) -http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10017&t=12932332
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    getting all the weight on that outside pedal really helps when on the edge of traction too.
  • cycle monster
    cycle monster Posts: 448
    I had what I like to call an undignified dismount a year ago and it took about three months to get my cornering confidence back. This process was helped greatly by reading articles and watching videos showing how to improve your riding. Weighting the outside pedal rebuilt confidence very quickly. Like most of the right things to do it felt odd at first. My experience is that the instinctive thing to do is usually wrong. Have you thought about booking yourself on a mountain biking course or session? Having someone who knows what they are doing demonstrating and coaching you could be just the ticket.

    If most accidents happen at home, they are not the homes of mountain bikers.
  • CraigXXL
    CraigXXL Posts: 1,852
    One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is smoothness. Look ahead and pick your line, usually where you look is where you go. Last minute scrubbing off speed will upset your balance making it harder to get your weight balance correct before you enter the bend meaning you are trying to get your weight over the front went you 've already hit the apex and should be moving your mass to rear to carry the speed out of the bend.
    Watch and form of racing be it MTB, MotoGp or Bobsleigh and the fastest always have a smooth flowing style.
    GT Force 1.0

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  • butcher of bakersfield
    butcher of bakersfield Posts: 1,233
    I have to admit, gravel caks me up a bit. If you have some gravelly terrain near you, just go out and ride it, get used to the feel, that's the only way you'll learn the boundaries.
  • monkeylizard
    monkeylizard Posts: 155
    Thanks for all the advice and encouragement, guys and gals.

    I think the plan for my next ride will be:

    1. Find a suitable corner
    2. Ride it and try not to fall off.
    3. Check rear wheel is still attached.
    4. Ride the corner again, but faster.
    5. Repeat steps 2-4 until I fall off.
    6. Ride it again slightly slower than when I fell off.

    :D
  • ireland57
    ireland57 Posts: 84
    I'm one who likes the front end to stick like glue.

    I run a knobby tyre up front (Nevegal, Ignitor 2.1 or 2.35) because when I turn into a corner I want the front to go EXACTLY where I point it, not someplace nearby.

    And as another said the back will follow. If it gets a little flighty you can deal with that.

    Correct cornering lines and technique help immensely. I use a lot of the track where I can; from one side to the other if there's room (while watching out for others of course).

    It can help to "straighten out a corner" sometimes. I.e. outside (at the point of entry), inside (at the apex), outside (at the exit) of the corner as you go through it.

    Correct tyre pressures that suit you, your bike and tyres make a big difference too.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    you're forgetting about weighing the front wheel and outer pedal. Oh, and hovering your inside foot in case you need to dab.

    I guess something else worth mentioning is that on corners where you're not going fast enough to lean right over with the bike, it helps if you keep your body centralised above the bike, but lean the bike underneath you.
  • cavegiant
    cavegiant Posts: 1,546
    stubs wrote:
    A lot of people corner with the outside pedal down and all the weight on that pedal. Personally I dont like that I try and keep my cranks almost level with the inside pedal forward and slightly higher. It might be wrong.

    You are wrong

    The best traction is achieved by using the tips mentioned in above posts



    It is very hard to recover a front slide, but longer plusher travel makes it easier.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?
  • stubs
    stubs Posts: 5,001
    cavegiant wrote:
    stubs wrote:
    A lot of people corner with the outside pedal down and all the weight on that pedal. Personally I dont like that I try and keep my cranks almost level with the inside pedal forward and slightly higher. It might be wrong.

    You are wrong

    The best traction is achieved by using the tips mentioned in above posts



    It is very hard to recover a front slide, but longer plusher travel makes it easier.

    Yes I have already agreed my technique is not what the book says but it works for me. I am not the fastest of riders but I have only occasionally lost the front wheel and I have nearly always caught the slide.

    There is a world DH rider who corners with the pedals flat cant remember who it is but I have seen him on youtube and freecaster a few times. Also Burry Stander at the Dalby XC world cup cornered with his pedals flat on the corners we watched from. So not everyone rides by the book. The pros probably corner differently according to the conditions on the day.
    Fig rolls: proof that god loves cyclists and that she wants us to do another lap
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    there is sound reason for the outside pedal down technique though.
  • stubs
    stubs Posts: 5,001
    yeehaamcgee wrote:
    there is sound reason for the outside pedal down technique though.

    Totally agree though not for berms so I have been told. Not sure why.
    Fig rolls: proof that god loves cyclists and that she wants us to do another lap
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    never had a problem on berms either, seems to make even more sense since you're cranked RIGHT over on them.
  • monkeylizard
    monkeylizard Posts: 155
    Well I've tried some of the advice...

    To help myself a bit, I thought as well as trying the technique tips I'd replace the High Roller 2.1 70a on the front with a 2.35 42a Super Tacky (belt and braces, and all that). It's certainly giving me the confidence to put more weight on the front end - it really has got stupid amounts of grip.

    The plan is to run with that on the front until I've got the technique sorted and then try to go back to the old tyre - I don't think I could cope with how much it drags for too long :D

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