Getting the hang of drops
Comments
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neeb wrote:
Obviously if your hands slip off the bars when you are out of the saddle you are almost certainly going to crash. Of course you can sprint with your hands on the hoods, but there is quite a lot of lateral force on your arms, and your grip is just more secure on the drops than with two fingers curled under the hoods.. For the same reason I sometimes use the drops for sudden, out-of-the-saddle short efforts going up hill (I know most people don't get on with this) simply because with the secure grip lower down it is easier to balance the lateral forces on the cranks. That's what I find anyway.if your hands are slipping off the hoods, your doing some thing very wrong, honestly.
Descending is very different obviously, but personally I feel more in control with a secure grip (albeit loose most of the time) on the drops, I think because if you need to brake hard, then you want a tight grip on the bars to control the inertial forces. Braking hard at 40mph on the hoods feels a bit dodgy to me.
+1, this is spot on. You can't crank the bars hard in a sprint on the hoods. Descending fast requires a low CoG and the ability/confidence to apply the brakes hard.0 -
redddraggon wrote:oldwelshman wrote:redddraggon wrote:Braking from High speed is also far better in the drops, part of what I mean by control.
Sorry have to disagree there
I rarely descend on the drops, always on the hoods and find it far better for bike control, especially on long descents with sweeping bends, also find it much easier braking, I reckon you need to get a sponge ball to strenghten your fingers
My fingers are plenty strong enough, I don't mean control of the brakes, I mean control of the bike under braking.
Weight distribution is far better when braking on the drops on a descent.
Can descend faster, corner better because centre of mass is lower, brake later while on the drops. I might be slow going up hill, but I am pr0 going downhill.
We shall have to meet up and race downhill and see which is best
Brake when on drops? If brakes are needed I stay on hoods because if you need to brake then not much advantage speed wise so no need to drop onto bars. I find I can corner much faster on hoods.
If descending flat out I may sometimes go on drops.
If you look at pros when they go fastest, they have hands centered on top of bars, elbows tucked in,head further forward over the bars, with crotch on the top tube. This gives them best positon aero wise.
For normal descending during training and steady rides, does not really matter which way you do it really whichever is most suited to individuals I guess.0 -
huuregeil wrote:neeb wrote:
Obviously if your hands slip off the bars when you are out of the saddle you are almost certainly going to crash. Of course you can sprint with your hands on the hoods, but there is quite a lot of lateral force on your arms, and your grip is just more secure on the drops than with two fingers curled under the hoods.. For the same reason I sometimes use the drops for sudden, out-of-the-saddle short efforts going up hill (I know most people don't get on with this) simply because with the secure grip lower down it is easier to balance the lateral forces on the cranks. That's what I find anyway.if your hands are slipping off the hoods, your doing some thing very wrong, honestly.
Descending is very different obviously, but personally I feel more in control with a secure grip (albeit loose most of the time) on the drops, I think because if you need to brake hard, then you want a tight grip on the bars to control the inertial forces. Braking hard at 40mph on the hoods feels a bit dodgy to me.
+1, this is spot on. You can't crank the bars hard in a sprint on the hoods. Descending fast requires a low CoG and the ability/confidence to apply the brakes hard.
I can see why some prefer to use drops or hoods, but I do not quite understand that some say riding on drops gives more confidence for braking hard. I have no trouble braking on hoods from very fast speeds no problem. I find if I do it from drops, braking can be a bit jerky and to me personally feels worse than from the hoods.
I also agree with some posters who say it is set up dependent. On my racing bike I would not be comfortable riding on the drops for a long time due to the harsh set up on racing bike, but on winter bike not so bad.
I can also get very aero on the tops of bars, but not so much on the hoods, horses for courses I guess
Just for the record, my fastest measured descent was on Marmotte, 63mph twice, fastest crash, 48mph, and I was on the drops at the time 0 -
On my racing bike I would not be comfortable riding on the drops for a long time due to the harsh set up on racing bike, but on winter bike not so bad.
My race bike is like that, however, under racing conditions the pain of staying in the drops doesn't even register compared to the pain from riding at 95%+ and I'd rather be on the drops and more aero. But if I try riding on the drops on a normal ride, I find I'm in agony pretty quickly.0 -
oldwelshman wrote:I can see why some prefer to use drops or hoods, but I do not quite understand that some say riding on drops gives more confidence for braking hard. I have no trouble braking on hoods from very fast speeds no problem. I find if I do it from drops, braking can be a bit jerky and to me personally feels worse than from the hoods.
Maybe it comes from being tall, but braking on the drops feels better in that it's easier to push you weight back and thus maintain rear-wheel traction, and feels more stable doing so.0 -
huuregeil wrote:oldwelshman wrote:I can see why some prefer to use drops or hoods, but I do not quite understand that some say riding on drops gives more confidence for braking hard. I have no trouble braking on hoods from very fast speeds no problem. I find if I do it from drops, braking can be a bit jerky and to me personally feels worse than from the hoods.
Maybe it comes from being tall, but braking on the drops feels better in that it's easier to push you weight back and thus maintain rear-wheel traction, and feels more stable doing so.
which is why I use the hoods on my bike! which may well point to position on the bike.
to be honest I think it's much like the compact/triple etc in that really there is naff all in it.0 -
I'm wondering what sort of setup people who prefer braking hard on the hoods going downhill have. What type of levers, and in what position? Maybe if you have chunky shimano STIs tilted upwards so that you have something to brace against...
To me it just seems obvious that when your hands are in the drops you have the most secure grip on the front end of the bike for any situation that involves pushing, pulling or otherwise exerting significant force on the handlebars. The drops are big curved handles after all, that's what they are designed for!
On the other hand, STIs have become more and more like extensions of the handlebars in recent years. Some of the Shimano ones are effectively handles that are almost as big as the drops, except that they protrude in the other direction. I suppose if they are tilted upwards and the bars are set low, you have something that's approaching an upwards curving drop bar...0 -
neeb wrote:I'm wondering what sort of setup people who prefer braking hard on the hoods going downhill have. What type of levers, and in what position? Maybe if you have chunky shimano STIs tilted upwards so that you have something to brace against...
To me it just seems obvious that when your hands are in the drops you have the most secure grip on the front end of the bike for any situation that involves pushing, pulling or otherwise exerting significant force on the handlebars. The drops are big curved handles after all, that's what they are designed for!
On the other hand, STIs have become more and more like extensions of the handlebars in recent years. Some of the Shimano ones are effectively handles that are almost as big as the drops, except that they protrude in the other direction. I suppose if they are tilted upwards and the bars are set low, you have something that's approaching an upwards curving drop bar...
+1 again! I absolutely agree, I can only imagine that people preferring hoods for descending and sprinting can only have fit/setup issues.
The other thing with sprinting is that you want to get your body weight as low and as forward as possible to prevent the front end lifting off. (Generally, and particularly for taller riders. Smaller people might have a problem with rear-end traction, but that's another issue!). Being in the drops achieves both of these aims, that's simple physics!0 -
I would have thought that braking on the drops is a type 1 lever, whilst the hoods is type 2. Type 1 levers are genrally more efficent.0
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Braking on the drops gives your fingers access to the end of the levers, which is the point that requires the least muscular force as the moment* is the largest.
Think of closing a door. It's easier to push at the handle than it is nearer the hinge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_%28physics%290 -
Dess1e wrote:I would have thought that braking on the drops is a type 1 lever, whilst the hoods is type 2. Type 1 levers are genrally more efficent.
I don't see how it changes what type of lever it is. It just changes the effective length of the lever, as Bhima stated, i.e. on the drops the force you apply is further from the pivot.0 -
huuregeil wrote:neeb wrote:I'm wondering what sort of setup people who prefer braking hard on the hoods going downhill have. What type of levers, and in what position? Maybe if you have chunky shimano STIs tilted upwards so that you have something to brace against...
To me it just seems obvious that when your hands are in the drops you have the most secure grip on the front end of the bike for any situation that involves pushing, pulling or otherwise exerting significant force on the handlebars. The drops are big curved handles after all, that's what they are designed for!
On the other hand, STIs have become more and more like extensions of the handlebars in recent years. Some of the Shimano ones are effectively handles that are almost as big as the drops, except that they protrude in the other direction. I suppose if they are tilted upwards and the bars are set low, you have something that's approaching an upwards curving drop bar...
+1 again! I absolutely agree, I can only imagine that people preferring hoods for descending and sprinting can only have fit/setup issues.
The other thing with sprinting is that you want to get your body weight as low and as forward as possible to prevent the front end lifting off. (Generally, and particularly for taller riders. Smaller people might have a problem with rear-end traction, but that's another issue!). Being in the drops achieves both of these aims, that's simple physics!
Maybe they just prefer it? In the same way that some people prefer climbing out of the saddle. Why does one way have to be wrong?
On a long sweeping descent on a main road I'd probably use the drops, but on rough, twisty, gravelly descents (the norm for most of my cycling) I feel more in control on the hoods. I don't need nor want to apply a lot of force, but I do want to be able to brake smoothly and progressively and have a good view of the road ahead. Therefore hoods is the better option. I could use the drops, it wouldn't be wrong, but it would be less effective than being on the hoods.More problems but still living....0 -
Point taken, fair enough! I should rephrase it:
People never using drops for descending or sprinting can only have fit/setup issues.0 -
0scar wrote:Pokerface wrote:Not to confuse the issue - but I feel LESS in control on the drops - especially when sprinting. Just me or anyone else?
I have exactly the same thing - I'm less confident going flat out on the drops because my hands areaway from the brakes. I can just about reach them from the drops with my finger tips but then I'm worried about slipping off completely.
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I find the same thing too. I completely agree that riding on the drops is a more secure position in which your hands are least likely to slip off the bars, but I always feel that if I'm on the brakes on a fast downhill that it would only take a minor pothole etc to cause my finger tips to slip off the brake levers - if I could reach more of the brake lever it wouldn't be such an issue. apart from that I would be on the drops for sure.
I am happy to accept this is a setup issue but am not aware that the brake lever can be adjusted closer to the bars. (I definitely don't have small hands)0 -
You can adjust most lever closer to the bars via shims (I cut up some rubber pads for my wife), or, depending on levers, grub screws under the covers.
You should be able to get at least two fingers curled around the ends of the levers when on the drops.
I use compact bars to the difference between hoods and drops is not huge and probably spend 75% on hoods and the rest in drops. I always get into the drops on descents, lever control and brake modulation is better for me this way.
I have found that there is a compromise between a really comfortable position on the hoods and a really comfortable position in the drops, if one is perfect the other is not, so I aim for a position in between. I try to ensure a position so that braking on the drops is good, that's when I'm going to need it most.
When I'm in the drops and fighting a headwind or just for a change of position, then I'm usually not covering the brakes all the time.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
You might find that if you experiment with the position of the brake lever on the bars and the tilt of the bars that you can get the lever closer to your fingers. The new campag levers are better than the old ones in this respect as the end of the brake lever hooks more towards the bar. You just need to be able to easily reach the lower part of the brake lever.0
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amaferanga wrote:On a long sweeping descent on a main road I'd probably use the drops, but on rough, twisty, gravelly descents (the norm for most of my cycling) I feel more in control on the hoods. I don't need nor want to apply a lot of force, but I do want to be able to brake smoothly and progressively and have a good view of the road ahead. Therefore hoods is the better option. I could use the drops, it wouldn't be wrong, but it would be less effective than being on the hoods.
I use the hoods for sh!tty descents too, but that's when I'm dragging the brakes and going pretty slow, but decent descents are done in the drops.0 -
huuregeil wrote:Point taken, fair enough! I should rephrase it:
People never using drops for descending or sprinting can only have fit/setup issues.
Ah I guess your the bike set up police
I have no set up issues and I think that the guys in the Pinarello shop in Treviso have a little bit of knowledge in knowing how to set up a bike for riders
I just prefer to descend on hoods, and yes they are shimano and they feel comfy and stable.
For sprinting at the end of a race, I do use the drops and get low, but during a race for closing gaps etc I often just stay on hoods and go for it. I also use the hoods on a climb which is probably generating the same power outputs as sprints and I dont feel unstable then. How many people climb on the drops?
A few have stated that drops are better for braking hard, to be honest you should not really have to brake hard descending as it is better to shave off speed before bends/hazards etc so I suppose I could claim that those braking hard on drops have riding issues? 0 -
oldwelshman wrote:For sprinting at the end of a race, I do use the drops and get low, but during a race for closing gaps etc I often just stay on hoods and go for it. I also use the hoods on a climb which is probably generating the same power outputs as sprints and I dont feel unstable then. How many people climb on the drops?
By my criteria, you don't never use the drops, thus you have no setup issues
Climbing power vs sprinting power: no contest, on a climb you're nowhere near sprint power unless you have a very slow sprint
Like neeb, I relatively regularly climb on drops for short-ish periods. Mixes it up a bit, I feel quite comfortable doing it, and makes me think I'm Pantanibetter to shave off speed before bends/hazards etc
Better? Surely not faster? Maybe just safer?
Seriously, you're clearly an experienced rider and this is the Beginners forum - I really do think that most less experienced riders who have issues with drops do actually have setup issues, rather than it being a preference thing.0 -
It is a beginners forum and I post in here as beginners often seek advice, then obviously they make a decision what to take in or to ignore
I believe with a lot of beginners it is more of a lack of confidence and lack of handling skils which may prevent them from using drops on descents though set up may also contribute.
In fact it is not only beginners, I ride with a few very good riders 1st cat standard, and they do not descend very well, but to be honest there are not that many races in uk that require it, probably more required for riders in hilly areas during training or in sportives.
Also a lot of beginners rarely go faster than 30mph descending which is weher the aero benefit of bike set up and low position take effect.
By the way, whislts it may be personal preference, bike set up or lack of confidence with respect to using drops, it is actually faster and safer to shave off excessive speed before going into bends on descents rather than braking on bends 0 -
oldwelshman wrote:By the way, whislts it may be personal preference, bike set up or lack of confidence with respect to using drops, it is actually faster and safer to shave off excessive speed before going into bends on descents rather than braking on bends
So surely then, having the ability to brake harder on the drops is beneficial, as then you get it all done quicker than on the hoods? 0
