Lazy Drafting ****

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Comments

  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    Daniel B wrote:
    There is some high quality trolling happening on here no?

    I certainly would not welcome someone I didn't know sitting right on my back wheel (Unless they said hello, and took turns on the front)
    So let me get this right - even though you agree, because it hasn't happened to you, it doesn't happen and therefore the people complaining about it happening to them are trolling?

    The universe will disappear into the discontinuity created by your logic.
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,538
    Daniel B wrote:
    There is some high quality trolling happening on here no?

    I certainly would not welcome someone I didn't know sitting right on my back wheel (Unless they said hello, and took turns on the front)
    So let me get this right - even though you agree, because it hasn't happened to you, it doesn't happen and therefore the people complaining about it happening to them are trolling?

    The universe will disappear into the discontinuity created by your logic.

    LOL, no I actually meant the people saying it was all fine and hunky dory, and wonderful were trolling.

    AT, I feel you have misunderstood me, or I was not clear enough on my posting.

    It has happened to me, in Italy, but there people were polite and took turns.

    If/when it happened to me here, I would be happy to continue if they asked, but would not be happy if they just took a tow for free.

    Cheers

    Dan
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Well I don't really care as long as they don't sit too close or hit me as I slow down. To be honest I usually leave drafters behind fairly quickly anyway. 8)
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  • To be honest I usually leave drafters behind fairly quickly anyway. 8)

    I think that is my main issue is that i wasn't able to just "leave him behind", more frustration than anything else. I need to do something to increase my average speed and power so that i can do this the next time it happens. Any ideas? I dd think i was coming on well but that knocked me a bit.
  • il_principe
    il_principe Posts: 9,155
    To be honest I usually leave drafters behind fairly quickly anyway. 8)

    I think that is my main issue is that i wasn't able to just "leave him behind", more frustration than anything else. I need to do something to increase my average speed and power so that i can do this the next time it happens. Any ideas? I dd think i was coming on well but that knocked me a bit.

    Interval sprint training!
  • cjcp
    cjcp Posts: 13,345
    To be honest I usually leave drafters behind fairly quickly anyway. 8)

    I think that is my main issue is that i wasn't able to just "leave him behind", more frustration than anything else. I need to do something to increase my average speed and power so that i can do this the next time it happens. Any ideas? I dd think i was coming on well but that knocked me a bit.

    What IP said.

    However, riding someone off your wheel - short of a Cav-style sprint for glory - is actually pretty difficult, because drafting involves significantly less energy, so the Fairy won't need to be as strong as you, but hangs on in there, sheltered from the big, scary wind. Wave them past, drop back so you don't draft them, watch them start to suffer and slowly grind to a halt and, then re-pass them at speed. In most cases, you'll then be Fairy-free.
    FCN 2-4.

    "What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
    "It stays down, Daddy."
    "Exactly."
  • cee
    cee Posts: 4,553
    and I had to endure 3 miles of clicking thanks to the unserviced BB of the MTBer behind me.

    is it not more likely that he had a clicky rear hub...like a Hope Tech one??

    The sound is not to everyones taste, but they are blody good hubs...even the Chris King hubs have a definite pawl engagement sound.

    At least the clicking let you know how close he was?
    Would it have been better if you hadn't known he was there?

    Still....i agree that folks shouldn't really draft other cyclists unless they communicate with you and take a turn.
    Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.

    H.G. Wells.
  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    Bhima wrote:
    Actually, when someone's in your slipstream, they decrease YOUR drag by between 3% - 25%. It's more of a pronounced effect in a headwind/faster speeds.
    Could you narrow that down a bit?
    I think that 3% (if its that much at mere mortals' speeds) would apply to a single bike followed by a single bike.
    I suspect that 25% applies to the guy leading the TdF peloton.
    I imagine that's why no one looks behind them and thanks the drafting fairy.
  • Aidy
    Aidy Posts: 2,015
    Aguila wrote:
    Aidy wrote:
    Aguila wrote:

    I dont draft cars/buses/vans etc, that's dangerous.

    It's rude because its my personal space. If I want to ride with someone I'll ask them. I do not want to ride with someone I dont know that close to me.

    Also I only overtake people I am clearly going quicker than.

    Sounds like a selfish attitude to me.

    Akin to car drivers claiming that bikes impede their personal space.

    Do you call back to them to ask if they'd mind moving back a little/overtaking, or do you just pedal away seething in silence?

    What an utter load of toss!

    1 When I'm out riding I'm not providing a public service.

    2 If I was riding constantly 10cm away from a drivers door/tailgate yes that would be both dangerous and rude.

    3 I simply accelerate away from them to make the point.

    Why are you so desperate to ride so close to total strangers anyway? There's a wide range of internet dating sites available you know.

    Gotta love when people can't form constructive arguments, so resort to personal insults :roll:

    Like I can ever be bothered to slow down enough to slipstream people.

    I care that cyclists are given respect by all road users, including other cyclists. Attitudes like "my personal space", and "my road" all seem fairly exclusive to me.
    Ultimately, I don't see the harm in effective use of the road.
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    edited August 2009
    Oh this is silly.

    Aidy or Aguila

    I can't remember who is arguing for or against drafting. But the bottom line is that as a safety issue, drafting in heavy traffic (for me that's around London) is dangerous.

    Why?

    Firstly there are no brake lights on a bike, therefore if the bike in front should stop suddenly (for any number of reasons) the delayed response from the person behind won't react fast enough not to crash into the bike in front.

    Secondly the person drafting can't see the road ahead and therefore won't be able to anticpate the need to brake suddenly, therefore using the bike in front as a reference for braking but not leaving sufficient space to react and brake themselves. This is provenfact with cars, its a reason (but not the sole cause of) why 'pile-ups' happen, its why motorists for decades have been taught braking distances and not to tailgate.

    Incidentally, to further support the above. A person so graciously demonstrated what happens when you draft a car that brakes suddenly, and you're not able to, by coliding with it and smacking his head and promptly falling off the bike.

    Thirdly, when you're being drafted the person in front is distracted and has to consider the person behind when braking ("sh*t, if I need to brake suddenly the person behind won't know and will crash into me") this makes the person drafting a hazard and therefore a danger to their saftey. Also their road position often restricts the view from behind when you're looking over the shoulder.

    In conclusion, drafting is fine when out on a country lane where you know and trust the people around you. But THIS is commuting, the hazards and dangers are different, many unexpected, and the need to brake suddenly is ever present. Its not a race and while I'll happily SCR along a clear flat or uphill road (never SCR downhill) I won't willingly become a danger or a hazard to someone else when commuting or riding in general - unless provoked.

    Someone +1 me.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • R_T_A
    R_T_A Posts: 488
    +1.

    Chapeau that man. :)
    Giant Escape R1
    FCN 8
    "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
    - Terry Pratchett.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    I'm sorry but you're just waaaay to goody goody. This morning I drafted a bus most of the way across London Bridge. It's amazing the way you just get sucked along, I was freewheeling at around 30mph. As it started to slow for a bus stop I did a sling shot round it's right side and whizzed up to the lights which I RLJed. Fantastic.
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  • Aidy
    Aidy Posts: 2,015
    I'm less arguing for slipstreaming, and more arguing for consideration for other cyclists.

    I don't get why people are so self-righteous and indignant when others slipstream them, if it's an issue, drop them, but do we need to harp on about it like it's the 8th sin? Is it really a big deal?

    They're making effective use of their roadspace, should they deliberately slow down from a comfortable pace for them? Or force themselves past their comfort point to overtake you?

    Whilst it's not appropriate, or even feasible to slipstream people on the majority of London roads, we are talking about cycling in general. Does getting all up in arms help the cause at all? Talk to the slipstreamer if it's really causing you aggravation, or drop them.
  • Headhuunter
    Headhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Aidy wrote:
    I'm less arguing for slipstreaming, and more arguing for consideration for other cyclists.

    I don't get why people are so self-righteous and indignant when others slipstream them, if it's an issue, drop them, but do we need to harp on about it like it's the 8th sin? Is it really a big deal?

    They're making effective use of their roadspace, should they deliberately slow down from a comfortable pace for them? Or force themselves past their comfort point to overtake you?

    Whilst it's not appropriate, or even feasible to slipstream people on the majority of London roads, we are talking about cycling in general. Does getting all up in arms help the cause at all? Talk to the slipstreamer if it's really causing you aggravation, or drop them.

    I agree. It's really not worth worrying about. I would slipstream on the commute if I could find anyone fast enough 8)
    Do not write below this line. Office use only.
  • secretsam
    secretsam Posts: 5,098
    Tom Barton wrote:
    Why is it rude?

    Think laterally to cars - if someone tailgates you it is very aggrivating. Why? Because it is dangerous, the driver following close behind does not know you and has no idea how you may react to a given situation and his reactions will almost certainly land you in an accident if there is a need to stop suddenly.

    At least a car has brake lights so the person behind knows when to stop...having said that, I was guilty the other day, but the young lady's shorts were very tight :oops: :roll:

    It's just a hill. Get over it.
  • Rich158
    Rich158 Posts: 2,348
    Aidy wrote:
    I'm less arguing for slipstreaming, and more arguing for consideration for other cyclists.

    I don't get why people are so self-righteous and indignant when others slipstream them, if it's an issue, drop them, but do we need to harp on about it like it's the 8th sin? Is it really a big deal?

    They're making effective use of their roadspace, should they deliberately slow down from a comfortable pace for them? Or force themselves past their comfort point to overtake you?

    Whilst it's not appropriate, or even feasible to slipstream people on the majority of London roads, we are talking about cycling in general. Does getting all up in arms help the cause at all? Talk to the slipstreamer if it's really causing you aggravation, or drop them.

    +1, If I'm just behind someone and we're riding at about the same speed what am I supposed to do? imo it's far easier for cars to pass two cyclists who happen to reasonably close together than pass one, brake to slot in between two cyclists a couple of car lengths apart, and then impatiently try to get past the second cyclist.

    That said I rarely commute in really heavy traffic, and if I'm in a situation with an evenly matched cyclist (scalp :wink: ) then I try to take my turn pulling them along. If I'm quicker than them they get left behind, or vice versa. On the odd ocaasion when I venture into central London I don't worry about cyclist sitting behind be, unless they're two inches from my back wheel or half wheeling.
    pain is temporary, the glory of beating your mates to the top of the hill lasts forever.....................

    Revised FCN - 2
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    I don't get why people are so self-righteous and indignant when others slipstream them, if it's an issue, drop them, but do we need to harp on about it like it's the 8th sin? Is it really a big deal?

    They're making effective use of their roadspace, should they deliberately slow down from a comfortable pace for them? Or force themselves past their comfort point to overtake you?

    This is dumb, frankly. You would expect a car or anyother vehicle including a motorbike to slow down or expect the car to overtake at an increased rate of speed.

    What you wouldn't expect is the vehicle to hug your bumper or back tyre.

    When driving a car, if you can drive. Do you place your bumper an inch from theirs when travelling at 70mph on the motorway or even at 30mph because the benefits improve your fuel consumption?
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • DonDaddyD
    DonDaddyD Posts: 12,689
    Rich158 wrote:
    On the odd ocaasion when I venture into central London I don't worry about cyclist sitting behind be, unless they're two inches from my back wheel or half wheeling.

    But that's what we're discussing, drafting. People sat on your wheel too the point that you may as well be riding a tandem.

    I don't mind people a few metres/feet away.
    Food Chain number = 4

    A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game
  • Rich158
    Rich158 Posts: 2,348
    DonDaddyD wrote:
    Rich158 wrote:
    On the odd ocaasion when I venture into central London I don't worry about cyclist sitting behind be, unless they're two inches from my back wheel or half wheeling.

    But that's what we're discussing, drafting. People sat on your wheel too the point that you may as well be riding a tandem.

    I don't mind people a few metres/feet away.

    In that case they're fools and a danger to eveyone. The only time I get that close to the guy in front is when I'm racing. Even in most Sportives and club runs the general etiquette is to ride close, but not so close that you're a danger to those arround you. When you're racing, especially on a closed circuit, you can expect a fairly good road surface and no hand signals, as they're not needed. On a sportive or club run you'd expect the guys at the front to indicate hazards, and those following need to ride at a distance where they're able to react to the signals without dangering anyone. Any closer, especially in a situation where you can't rely upon the other rider, is madness imho, and in heavy traffic downright suicidal.
    pain is temporary, the glory of beating your mates to the top of the hill lasts forever.....................

    Revised FCN - 2
  • biondino
    biondino Posts: 5,990
    Remember that if the rider in front stands up for any reason, his back wheel will go backwards by about 6 inches relative to the drafter. This could be unpleasant if they're too close...
  • cee
    cee Posts: 4,553
    biondino wrote:
    Remember that if the rider in front stands up for any reason, his back wheel will go backwards by about 6 inches relative to the drafter. This could be unpleasant if they're too close...

    +1 the back wheel will usually go a little bit backwards when you sit back down again too....

    have to be so careful not to do this when riding in a group.....difficult if you don't know someone is behind you.
    Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.

    H.G. Wells.
  • Aguila
    Aguila Posts: 622
    Aidy wrote:
    Aguila wrote:
    Aidy wrote:
    Aguila wrote:

    I dont draft cars/buses/vans etc, that's dangerous.

    It's rude because its my personal space. If I want to ride with someone I'll ask them. I do not want to ride with someone I dont know that close to me.

    Also I only overtake people I am clearly going quicker than.

    Sounds like a selfish attitude to me.

    Akin to car drivers claiming that bikes impede their personal space.

    Do you call back to them to ask if they'd mind moving back a little/overtaking, or do you just pedal away seething in silence?

    What an utter load of toss!

    1 When I'm out riding I'm not providing a public service.

    2 If I was riding constantly 10cm away from a drivers door/tailgate yes that would be both dangerous and rude.

    3 I simply accelerate away from them to make the point.

    Why are you so desperate to ride so close to total strangers anyway? There's a wide range of internet dating sites available you know.

    Gotta love when people can't form constructive arguments, so resort to personal insults :roll:

    Like I can ever be bothered to slow down enough to slipstream people.

    I care that cyclists are given respect by all road users, including other cyclists. Attitudes like "my personal space", and "my road" all seem fairly exclusive to me.
    Ultimately, I don't see the harm in effective use of the road.

    Gotta love it when people simply ignore your constructive arguments, I spent 2 posts replying to the comments you raised. For what its worth my comments are not intended to be insulting.

    However I find it interesting that you claim to "care that cyclists are given respect by all road users" presumably including you. At the same time it is pretty clear that the majority of posters on here agree that drafting strangers is both dangerous and unpleasant for the person up front. Seems a bit difficult to reconcile those two statements.

    If you care about your fellow cyclists and you know that they don't want you to draft them then please don't do it. Either overtake or if you happen to be going at a similar speed remain at a polite distance.

    If you know the rider in front and you are working together thats great, my fastest ever commute was done doing exactly that.

    The irony of this argument is that as I commute through countryside this very rarely happens to me, it does really annoy when it does though.

    Anyhow I promise I will now not say anything more on the subject.
  • Stone Glider
    Stone Glider Posts: 1,227
    On Sunday I had my first experience of "taking a wheel", kindly offered by a group member when struggling along an A road. As I told him afterwards "for eighty or ninety seconds I felt like a proper cyclist" It really does make a great deal of difference.

    However the wheel was graciously offered and gratefully accepted. When I quit i told him and wished him well. That is not the problem outlined in the OP.
    The older I get the faster I was
  • always_tyred
    always_tyred Posts: 4,965
    I'm sorry but you're just waaaay to goody goody. This morning I drafted a bus most of the way across London Bridge. It's amazing the way you just get sucked along, I was freewheeling at around 30mph. As it started to slow for a bus stop I did a sling shot round it's right side and whizzed up to the lights which I RLJed. Fantastic.
    Why didn't you just hop onto the pavement on the left? Oh - bus stop, sorry.
  • Just started commuting - 22 mile round trip . . on an MTB with knobblies! It is very hard work, so when some guy on a £2000 roadie sits on my tail for a mile or 2 I get irritated - He obviously has the more suitable bike, and all the gear . . and I am guessing is WAY fitter than I am . . . .

    I on the other hand have not take to sitting on anyone elses tail . . yet! Maybe I should smarten up :twisted:

    Incidentally, heading from Wimbledon into Waterloo, I only manage a 14mph average . . but then today was only day 3 :roll:

    May get some thinnner tyres . . and see what difference they make
  • salsajake
    salsajake Posts: 702
    I've only ever done it once. Was on my big climb of the commute, 3/4 of the way up. Someone passes me fairly convincingly but I quicken the pace slightly and I am straight on his wheel, but not wanting to re-pass straight away as the traffic is heavy. (SCR is the only reason I didn't just let him go!) Anyway, I realise as the road levels that he is riding at exactly my pace, so I ask him if it is OK to follow his wheel. He seems more annoyed that he has not dropped me, but mutters 'yes'. He goes a different way a bit further on but does say bye when I say cheers.

    Why did I do it?

    1. Because I was riding at his pace (once on the flat)
    2. Because the tow was nice
    3. Because he looked like a 'club' type cyclist
    4. Because I didn't want to feel that he had dropped me
    5. SCR opportunity, though I never got the chance to repass. In reality I may have simply taken a turn on the front, for mutual benefit, because it might have got silly otherwise!)

    Objectively I think all of those make me a pillock as reasons for justifying it (and I probably am, but who cares!), but at least I asked and I think for most on here they would understand to some extent.

    As for the guy in Aberdeen who got rear-ended and then insulted, that is amazing! How you didn't at least give him a bewildered look before blasting into the sunset amazes me more
  • flamite
    flamite Posts: 269
    Just started commuting - 22 mile round trip . . on an MTB with knobblies! It is very hard work, so when some guy on a £2000 roadie sits on my tail for a mile or 2 I get irritated - He obviously has the more suitable bike, and all the gear . . and I am guessing is WAY fitter than I am . . . .

    I on the other hand have not take to sitting on anyone elses tail . . yet! Maybe I should smarten up :twisted:

    Incidentally, heading from Wimbledon into Waterloo, I only manage a 14mph average . . but then today was only day 3 :roll:

    May get some thinnner tyres . . and see what difference they make

    Watch outbulletprooffool its a slippery slope!!

    thats how i started a year ago, on a clapped out old mtb, then came the skinny tyres, then the 2nd hand road bike and before you know it over £1k's worth of bike between your legs (plus a few in the garage)