Incident this am 24/09 Southampton Row / Theobalds Rd

My mate texted me about that this morning as he went past before the emergency services had arrived. His description was that it was awful and he described the cyclist as being in two parts, with blood everywhere. I really hope he was being over dramatic and it is nowhere near that bad, but my mate was pretty shaken from what he'd seen. I actually ended up coming in on the train as he was desperate for me not to cycle today.

anyone heard anymore? ... sounds dreadful - hope all involved are ok

Not again.

Not another person cleaned off the road with disenfectant.

My thoughts are with the person's family and friends.

But also, get angry and do something about this.

Chase up those emails we sent to Boris & others last week. If you did not send an email or letter - do so today.

Set a reminder to chase it up. Don't let it go!

I am putting a freedom of info request into Dept of Transport to get figures on cycling deaths / serious injuries & vehicles involved for London, in order to back up arguments.

We need to come up with some serious suggestions as to what can be done.

As more people start to cycle this problem could get worse. Deaths caused by HGVs are already increasing as a percentage of overall cycling deaths and (I think) two thirds of them are in London.

What benefit would there be in the cycle to work scheme requiring a safety course to be undertaken - rather like the theory part of the driving test, a hazard awareness test?

I am not putting the blame on the cyclists - just looking for a holistic approach to addressing this issue.

Other ideas are:

To change road layouts
Change light phases at junctions to account for cycles.
Restrict heavy vehicles in central london to non-rush hour journeys

woodford2barbican wrote:

Not again. Not another person cleaned off the road with disenfectant. My thoughts are with the person's family and friends. But also, get angry and do something about this. Chase up those emails we sent to Boris & others last week. If you did not send an email or letter - do so today. Set a reminder to chase it up. Don't let it go! I am putting a freedom of info request into Dept of Transport to get figures on cycling deaths / serious injuries & vehicles involved for London, in order to back up arguments. We need to come up with some serious suggestions as to what can be done. As more people start to cycle this problem could get worse. Deaths caused by HGVs ar already increasing as a percentage of overall cycling deaths and (I think) two thirds of them are in London. What benefit would there be in the cycle to work scheme requiring a safety course to be undertaken - rather like the theory part of the driving test, a hazard awareness test? I am not putting the blame on the cyclists - just looking for a hoistic approach to addressing this issue. Other ideas are: To change road layouts Change light phases at junctions to account for cycles. Restrict heavy vehicles in central london to non-rush hour journeys

Could not agree more with all this.

One of the major problems as I see it is the lack of education - this is twofold:

1: HGV drivers in London need to be more aware of cyclists. They need to be aware that many commuter cyclists in London are a tad on the numpty side and will do silly things like filtering on the inside (please note I am making no assumptions about today’s accident). IMHO they should be banned from London in rush hour.

2: Those new to cycling need to be educated about cycling safety. There is far too much emphasis on helmets and high viz and not enough on road craft. I see people clad head to toe in hi-viz, helmeted and lit up like Christmas, RLJ, filtering badly and generally riding dangerously everyday. Case in point – the idiot at Borough last night who jumped straight across me, a bus and a WVM as our lights went green, seemingly unaware of how close he came to being flattened he then proceeded to jump 2 more red lights before we went our separate ways. He was so hi viz you could probably see him from space.

No amount of high viz or helmet will protect you from a left turning lorry. To my mind it's not "be safe be seen" it's "ride safe be safe.

So what can be done? Well better advertising from the GLA/TFL.
Bike shops educating new customers about the availability of free cycle classes etc.
More consultation between planners and cyclists.

I'd definitely describe myself as an experienced cyclist these days (cycling into London for over 10 years) and although I'd probably say at first thought that my riding style hasn't changed much I think on reflection that I've certainly become a more defensive cyclist and my anticipation of potential issues is far better. The real problem for many cyclists is that they don't know what defensive cycling is, zipping all over the place and cutting into spaces that really shouldn't even be contemplated as an option. Having said that, if a vehicle overtakes you and immediately turns left (obviously we don't know what happened in this accident), you don't stand a chance.

While cyclists need to be taught to be more careful when riding on the inside of vehicles, all motorists need to be made aware of the fact that overtaking a cyclist mere metres before a left turn that you intend to make is not just dangerous, but can cost that cyclist his/her life.

I like the ideas ..... maybe a practical way would be to provide information (pamphlet - ok it may end up in the bin unread) on 'safe commuting' whenever someone buys a bike and include information for anyone learning to drive or when experienced drivers renew their licence (does this happen - sorry not long over here!) or MOT (??).

The key is to make people aware and hopefully this might change behaviours and make the roads safer for everyone.

I agree that conscripting people into learning isn't going to work, nor is charging them for the privilage of learning some lifesaving advice - shame but reality.

boybiker wrote:

This might sound stupid but how about training newbie cyclists how to ride in traffic. compared to the cost of putting in a proper cycling infrastructure in London the cost of running a few simple training courses is minimal.The hard part is of course convincing newbie cyclists that it is actually sodding dangerous out there.

A lot of cyclists don't know how to ride in traffic but a much larger of motorists don't know how to drive safely. It's not only cyclists that get killed; if all cyclists were perfect it would save about 40 lives a year out of the 3000 road deaths. Motorists; particularly lorry drivers, need to learn how to use their vehicles without killing pedestrians, cyclists, themselves, eachother and their passengers and the laws that exist to protect us all from dangerous drivers should be enforced.
As far as cycling infrastructure is concerned that's a complete non-starter, it would serve only to make junctions more complicated and so add to the danger; as indeed it does where it has been put in.

Without wanting to be wilfully controversial, any classes to genuinely promote cycling safely in London would have to encourage red light jumping where appropriate and therefore aren't likely to be proposed by the government in a hurry. I feel far more exposed when I wait patiently in line behind buses / HGV's, than when I (safely) make my way to the front of the queue, and set off when it is safe to proceed (and not when the traffic lights tell me) which often allows me to beat the traffic and negotiate junctions in relative peace. Likewise mounting pavements, whilst not something I would ever do if it got in the way of pedestrians, is a valuable means of getting out of the way of larger road users.

I do think a lot of the comments on these forums are a bit on the sanctimonious side when it comes to strict compliance with the road traffic laws - they don't really support safe cycling in my opinion, and any attempt to indoctrinate cyclists with a set of rules designed for cars is a bad idea. Roadcraft specifically for cyclists should be encouraged, but I honestly think a bit of bending of the law is essential in London traffic.

lost_in_thought wrote:

MatHammond wrote:

Without wanting to be wilfully controversial, any classes to genuinely promote cycling safely in London would have to encourage red light jumping where appropriate and therefore aren't likely to be proposed by the government in a hurry. I feel far more exposed when I wait patiently in line behind buses / HGV's, than when I (safely) make my way to the front of the queue, and set off when it is safe to proceed (and not when the traffic lights tell me) which often allows me to beat the traffic and negotiate junctions in relative peace. Likewise mounting pavements, whilst not something I would ever do if it got in the way of pedestrians, is a valuable means of getting out of the way of larger road users.

I do think a lot of the comments on these forums are a bit on the sanctimonious side when it comes to strict compliance with the road traffic laws - they don't really support safe cycling in my opinion, and any attempt to indoctrinate cyclists with a set of rules designed for cars is a bad idea. Roadcraft specifically for cyclists should be encouraged, but I honestly think a bit of bending of the law is essential in London traffic.

Uh-oh....

*covers head and legs it*

OH FFS! Boy did you pick a bad day to get me started on this one! So your safety is paramount, well yes that makes sense well done have a gold star. Kind of the same attitude most 4WD drivers use to justify why the have one.

What about the pedestrians safety when you mount the pavement? What about the drivers who get increasingly angry with cyclists breaking the laws they are supposed to obey eh and then go and perform stupid manouvres because they've got wound up?

The CTC offers a very good cycling proficiency scheme which does not condone the activities you are proposing but it does accept that rigid adherence to rules is not always the approach. Perhaps you should try it MatHammond, it sounds like you need a lesson or two!

Having cycled to Paris recently I noticed that HGVs in France give cyclists more space than those in the UK. I also noticed very few cyclists going down the inside at traffic lights to get past stationary queues.

While cyclists continue to undertake people they will continue to get crushed. Likewise, while traffic does not give bikes room, cyclists will continue to get crushed. You can't control the traffic, but you can control where you position yourself on the road.

MatHammond wrote:

Without wanting to be wilfully controversial, any classes to genuinely promote cycling safely in London would have to encourage red light jumping where appropriate and therefore aren't likely to be proposed by the government in a hurry. I feel far more exposed when I wait patiently in line behind buses / HGV's, than when I (safely) make my way to the front of the queue, and set off when it is safe to proceed (and not when the traffic lights tell me) which often allows me to beat the traffic and negotiate junctions in relative peace. Likewise mounting pavements, whilst not something I would ever do if it got in the way of pedestrians, is a valuable means of getting out of the way of larger road users.

I do think a lot of the comments on these forums are a bit on the sanctimonious side when it comes to strict compliance with the road traffic laws - they don't really support safe cycling in my opinion, and any attempt to indoctrinate cyclists with a set of rules designed for cars is a bad idea. Roadcraft specifically for cyclists should be encouraged, but I honestly think a bit of bending of the law is essential in London traffic.

Arghhhh. MUST NOT GET SUCKED IN....

Dammit

Read this mate: http://www.amazon.co.uk/City-Cycling-Richard-Ballantine/dp/1905005601/ref=pd_sim_b_1

Or this:


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cyclecraft-Complete-Enjoyable-Cycling-Children/dp/0117037400/ref=pd_sim_b_1

Remember - you are traffic and have no need to "get out of the way." Assert your rights and don't pander to ignorance.

I agree totally with the educating cyclists suggestions made by several of you.

Too many cyclists seem to think they can behave with impunity and that any accident will not be considered their fault. Highlighting the fines and punishments for breaking the law is pointless because unless there is a police officer at each and every junction, roundabout, etc ,then, with no means of identifying cyclists, how are they going to retrospectively dole out these punishments and fines?

Another problem is that many cyclists are young and feel immortal and this, combined with the perception that their riding endangers only themselves and nobody else (regardless of the resulting trauma to an innocent driver who was driving well and legally) means that again there is on incentive to modify their riding.

So, the only way would seem to be a cycle craft scheme of some sort. But how?

I am also increasingly against cycle lanes, unless they are of a decent size and the entry and exits to them are logical and safe. I think a cycle lane subconciously tells drivers they don't need to look out for cyclists and it also perpertuates the idea that many drivers seem to have that we are not a legitmate vehicle and have no right to share road space with them.

So, I think educating car drivers - maybe incorporating questions about cyclists in the driving test - and giving all drivers of large vehicles a short refresher course on cyclists, blind spots, etc may also be necessary.

And finally, and I know this is a big ask, if the police could spare the time and resources to have a word with drivers if cyclists report them that woudl at least help us feel someone was on our side and might make drivers think a bit if they knew the details of an incident involving them were noted and retained.

Having seen the cycling prompted by the cyclist-is-never-at-fault laws in Belgium and the Netherlands, I would not advocate similar legislation here. The point is that cyclists are equal, not special, vehicles.

MatHammond wrote:

Without wanting to be wilfully controversial, any classes to genuinely promote cycling safely in London would have to encourage red light jumping where appropriate and therefore aren't likely to be proposed by the government in a hurry. I feel far more exposed when I wait patiently in line behind buses / HGV's, than when I (safely) make my way to the front of the queue, and set off when it is safe to proceed (and not when the traffic lights tell me) which often allows me to beat the traffic and negotiate junctions in relative peace. Likewise mounting pavements, whilst not something I would ever do if it got in the way of pedestrians, is a valuable means of getting out of the way of larger road users.

I do think a lot of the comments on these forums are a bit on the sanctimonious side when it comes to strict compliance with the road traffic laws - they don't really support safe cycling in my opinion, and any attempt to indoctrinate cyclists with a set of rules designed for cars is a bad idea. Roadcraft specifically for cyclists should be encouraged, but I honestly think a bit of bending of the law is essential in London traffic.

You are just wrong.

May be getting some sort of sponsorship for a leaflet and getting them out there through cycle shops? Evans, Bikehut must have a pot of cash...how much would 100,000 flyers cost? Naff all

OR (brain has finally started working today) get onto the Freewheel peeps and see if they can use their mailing list to spread the word as well as wiggle, chain reactions et al....No cost to produce or distribute

So what should this leaflet say??....actually I'm going to start a new thread.....

Jump red lights - the cyclist maybe aware of what they are doing - the other road users (including pedestrians) can't read minds, so have to react to someone doing something which is against the norms ... ie red means stop. Is it really worth saving that extra 20 - 30 seconds...?