Driving Behaviour and Religion

magicroundabout wrote:

Apologies in advance for the long explanation. You can't really do half a job of this. You either explain all of it or not bother...

In what way are people who go to church better than other people. What do they do that makes them better?

The answer is nothing. Christians don't DO anything to be "better". Quite a common misunderstanding.

First, let's define "better". Christains, Jews and Muslims all believe in a God who demands absolute perfection from the people he has made. He made you to be perfect, but you've been messed up by the world, and you've chosen to mess up a few times yourself. If we were all perfect, as God demands, then there world would be a pretty amazing place. Peaceful, enjoyable, healthy, with people's differences not mattering (and with everyone driving perfectly, of course!!). We all fall way short of our God's standards!

When people who follow this god try to be better, they're trying to gain the approval of the God. That's what being "better" is for them.

The people of the religions you mention are all trying:

1) to match up to Gods standards - trying to be "better" as defined above
2) to try to encourage the rest of the world to understand this

My understanding of Christianity is pretty good, but of other faiths is not so good, so apologies for that too. My understanding is that the followers of these faiths try to be seen as better by God in the following ways:

Jews: by following the Laws that God laid down to Moses, or interpretations of those laws.
Muslims: by holding to the (5? 7?) main principles of Islam (anything else? not sure what the entry criteria are here)
Christians: by believing that Jesus' death made up for all their wrong. Jesus died in the place of the Christian...in the place of ALL people who will believe in him.

So, given all that, the answer to your question is that people who go to church don't DO anything to be seen as better in God's sight. Their failings are made up for by Jesus' death and all they have to do is believe that and God sees them as being perfect.

The "doing good" bit comes as part of believing. If you believe in Jesus' death then:

1) You must accept his teachings.
2) You owe him one (in fact, you owe him your life!)

So Christians try to become better people in response to what Jesus did. If you're not trying to do good then you can't be believing in Jesus because he told you to do good!

In response to the list of bad things that people of faith ("Better People") do...well, isn't it true that people who don't have a faith do all these things too?

My experience is that:
- the massive majority of religious people I know, of all faiths, are kind, loving, peaceful people, trying to live out high morals in a corrupt society
- the massive majority of nasty people I know, are very anti-religion

Note that I'm NOT saying that there are kind people who aren't religious, or nasty people who are. In fact, the massive majority of non-religious people I know are very nice people. But unlike people of faith, their morals are flexible and unpublished and not up to scrutiny.

I reckon that if you can show me one non-believer who does voluntary work I'll show you 5 believers who do. You show me one non-believer that gives a significant amount to charity and I'll show you 5 belivers who do. I don't have stats to prove it. That's my experience (as a non-believer for about 22 years, and as a believer for less than halfof that). My experience is that the UK would be a much worse place without the church, without the people of Mosque and Temple communities. I believe that the bad is far outweighed by the good.

The idea that we behave morally and ethically through fear of an imaginary being, rather than because we instinctively feel it is the right thing to do, is ridiculous. If your god wasn't looking, would you then feel free to behave as you like?

This raises the idea of having a moral source. Where does that instinctive feeling of right and wrong come from? We could have a nature/nurture discussion but nobody would win it. Here's some questions. Murder is generally construed to be wrong, isn't it? Why? Who says it's wrong? If we're just all just random lumps of atoms who are going to die anyway then why care? What reason is there to have a moral stance on anything? "To improve the quality of life for others?" I hear some say, but why do that? Why should I care about the quality of life of another random bunch of atoms?

I believe that God isn't just looking, he put within us the sense of right and wrong. As the bible says he "made us in his image" - that means that we have some sort of likeness to him. We all secretly long for the same good, right things that he does.

Back on the main topic...

As a Christian, I mess up. Can I square this with my faith? No! Every time I do something wrong God frowns upon me. But he picks me up, forgives me, gives me another chance. It's a battle. The bible doesn't promise you an easy life if you believe - quite the opposite, the Christian life is hard! Loving people is hard.

It's doubly hard on the road as a cyclist OR as a driver. But do something for me. Have a day, when you have no genuine reason to hurry, where you promise yourself to "be better" and drive or cycle politely. Let people into spaces. Give way. Stick to the speed limit. Stop at red lights. Wave people across. Heck, force a smile if you have to. Slow down and be nice. Forget about you, and think about everyone else. It's hard. But see what a sense of wellbeing you get.

Maybe that person jumping a red light has a kid in hospital who's dying. Maybe the person cutting you up is racing to see his first child be born. Maybe the learner in front is REALLY nervous and has panic attacks about being overtaken. Maybe these people are just crap, arrogant, and/or stupid drivers, but who are you to know?

There's a song: "...kindness is better than any sort of terror or any kind of spite/sometimes that means some come before you/what's gone returns in mystery, love and light"

Perhaps after a day of trying to do right, you'll understand why Christians try to be better. The bit of God in us that helps us know right and wrong also makes us feel good when we do right! And you'll have taken a step towards God's perfect world.

sylvanus wrote:

I understand your point but lets agree that there is no perfect answer. I'll freely accept that religion is far from perfect and as you point out it can even be a source of evil. However in general, religion and spirituality are a force for good despite their earthly defects.

You must though tackle the central "hole" in rationalist atheism which is that it has no method of defining an objective moral direction or a social structure. Lets adopt a cycling metaphor to illustrate what I mean.

Lets assume there are two sorts of cyclists in London, club-members and non club-members. Lets call the non club-members "individualists". The club-members have many advantages since they are motivated by organised club and training runs and meet other club members that introduce them to sportives and racing. The peer pressure and encouragement of belonging to a club tend to cause them to train and race more and so become fitter and faster.

The individualists have advantages too since they can train whenever they wish and can be entirely self-motivated. Many individualists are uncomfortable with being part of a group or with the apparent arrogance of clubs like London Dynamo or Agiskoviner with all their club kit nonsense and competition. The individualists however, tend to train and race much less often than the club members and have less peer encouragement and example to follow. As a result they tend to be slower and fatter. The individualists however deny that and say cycling clubs are pointlessly oppressive. Some even claim that British Cycling does not exist and that racing is a waste of time.

I'm a member of a cycling club just as I'm a member of a church and I believe, perhaps wrongly that one helps me be thinner and faster, the other helps me to be calmer, more spiritual and probably more thoughtful about morals. I have to be honest though and admit I spend a multiple of more time on a bike than in a church....

ill planned democratic crusade on iraq and afghanistan. .... but the fact that its perpetrated by those who would otherwise purport to live by christian values i feel reinforces my point.

i do also take issue that you need some kind of structured moral framework to follow in order to be, or try to be, good. i was raised a catholic until i could no longer take the hypocrisy

sylvanus wrote:

Could I politely suggest that you could be even more perfect (!) if you didn't such massive chunks of text in your replies?