Hire a really high-end road bike in UK?

neeb

Anyone know if it’s possible to hire a top-end current road bike in the UK? I mean something like a Dogma F, the latest Madone or the new Scott Foil with top-level wheels, Dura Ace etc.

Just out of curiosity I’d like to have a go on one for a couple of weeks without shelling out 15 grand..

A quick google suggests not.

First.Aspect

Not that I've ever found. I looked quite hard a few years ago and the best I could find was a genesis sora or something like that. Take a long weekend to Mallorca.

ugo.santalucia

There is no market.
High end rentals need keen cyclists who already own bikes but for some reason cannot use them, and are prepared to pay high fees to ride one. So typically holidaymakers who fly in. You can probably count on your fingertips those who fly to the UK for a cycling holiday.
As above, better luck in Majorca, although even there, I suspect most of the rental market will be mid range.

First.Aspect

ugo.santalucia said:

There is no market.
High end rentals need keen cyclists who already own bikes but for some reason cannot use them, and are prepared to pay high fees to ride one. So typically holidaymakers who fly in. You can probably count on your fingertips those who fly to the UK for a cycling holiday.
As above, better luck in Majorca, although even there, I suspect most of the rental market will be mid range.

It's a while ago but I followed a group of Brits riding Wiggo-alike Pinnarellos up one of the climbs. And passed another group on highish-end titanium bikes. I also rented a then near top of the range Cannondale Supersix once.

Top tip though - take your own tyres so you don't suffer from Conti Ultrasport or something like that. (And saddle and pedals)

pblakeney

There is/was a shop in Port Pollensa that specialised in hiring out top end Pinarellos.
They were £100 or €100 a day, can't remember. Was a few years ago now though.

Dorset_Boy

pblakeney said:

There is/was a shop in Port Pollensa that specialised in hiring out top end Pinarellos.
They were £100 or €100 a day, can't remember. Was a few years ago now though.

Yes, it's still there:
https://www.pinarelloexperience.com/
or there's the Canyon Base in the SE of the island.

pblakeney

Wow! £190 per day for a Dogma. My curiosity doesn't stretch that far.
I should have done it when I was last there.

neeb

Ideally what I'd like to do of course is have one at home for a week or so, set it up *exactly* like my current bikes in terms of contact points, and ride it on routes I'm very familiar with, several times. Strikes me that that's the only way to cut through the tech marketing and find out if state-of-the-art bikes are actually any faster than what I've got, and if so by how much.

pblakeney

I'd guess marginal gains in performance and quite likely a loss of comfort to achieve that but please you do the test at your expense as I'd like to know for sure. 😉

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Strikes me that that's the only way to cut through the tech marketing and find out if state-of-the-art bikes are actually any faster than what I've got, and if so by how much.

Having owned quite a few high end frames, the major difference is the increased stiffness which leads to better power transfer. As more of your power is translated into forward momentum, the speed will increase.

The lower weight and better power transfer of high end frames makes more of a difference to feel of the bike and ride quality, as soon as you turn the pedals they tend to just 'kick', their is no discernible lag at all.

It is not a huge difference though, probably about 2-3kmh for the same power output when comparing my top bike against the winter training bike.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Oh and back to the original point. The Service Course in Girona rents high end stuff, Bastion, Argonaut etc. It is owned by an ex pro, Christian Meier.

I believe they have opened an outpost in Wilmslow, geared towards (pun intended!) Manchester and the Peak District. No idea if they offer the same rental service as they do in Girona but @neeb, it could be worth checking out to see if they offer anything rental wise.

joeyhalloran

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Strikes me that that's the only way to cut through the tech marketing and find out if state-of-the-art bikes are actually any faster than what I've got, and if so by how much.

Having owned quite a few high end frames, the major difference is the increased stiffness which leads to better power transfer. As more of your power is translated into forward momentum, the speed will increase.

The lower weight and better power transfer of high end frames makes more of a difference to feel of the bike and ride quality, as soon as you turn the pedals they tend to just 'kick', their is no discernible lag at all.

It is not a huge difference though, probably about 2-3kmh for the same power output when comparing my top bike against the winter training bike.

The speed difference will almost definitely be nothing to do with stiffness and everything to do with aerodynamics.

First.Aspect

joeyhalloran said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Strikes me that that's the only way to cut through the tech marketing and find out if state-of-the-art bikes are actually any faster than what I've got, and if so by how much.

Having owned quite a few high end frames, the major difference is the increased stiffness which leads to better power transfer. As more of your power is translated into forward momentum, the speed will increase.

The lower weight and better power transfer of high end frames makes more of a difference to feel of the bike and ride quality, as soon as you turn the pedals they tend to just 'kick', their is no discernible lag at all.

It is not a huge difference though, probably about 2-3kmh for the same power output when comparing my top bike against the winter training bike.

The speed difference will almost definitely be nothing to do with stiffness and everything to do with aerodynamics.

This.

Stiff bikes feel faster, but are they actually? Within reason I've never been convinced, for largely the same reasons that wider tyres and lower pressures aren't slower. Is there actually any difference in efficiency between 23c tyres, 100psi and a springy frame, and a stiff frame that rides like a block of wood, on 32c tyres at 60psi to compensate?

You will note that the latest trend is to add the compliance back into the frames they took out the last few years. I'm just waiting for some bright spark to propose that a narrower frontal wheel area is more aero, and start selling lighter narrower tyres and wheel systems.

pblakeney

First.Aspect said:

joeyhalloran said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Strikes me that that's the only way to cut through the tech marketing and find out if state-of-the-art bikes are actually any faster than what I've got, and if so by how much.

Having owned quite a few high end frames, the major difference is the increased stiffness which leads to better power transfer. As more of your power is translated into forward momentum, the speed will increase.

The lower weight and better power transfer of high end frames makes more of a difference to feel of the bike and ride quality, as soon as you turn the pedals they tend to just 'kick', their is no discernible lag at all.

It is not a huge difference though, probably about 2-3kmh for the same power output when comparing my top bike against the winter training bike.

The speed difference will almost definitely be nothing to do with stiffness and everything to do with aerodynamics.

This.

Stiff bikes feel faster, but are they actually? Within reason I've never been convinced, for largely the same reasons that wider tyres and lower pressures aren't slower. Is there actually any difference in efficiency between 23c tyres, 100psi and a springy frame, and a stiff frame that rides like a block of wood, on 32c tyres at 60psi to compensate?

You will note that the latest trend is to add the compliance back into the frames they took out the last few years. I'm just waiting for some bright spark to propose that a narrower frontal wheel area is more aero, and start selling lighter narrower tyres and wheel systems.

The same bright spark may also propose that skinnier head tubes may help with aerodynamics too. 😉

MidlandsGrimpeur2

The speed difference will almost definitely be nothing to do with stiffness and everything to do with aerodynamics

It's a fair point, and I am sure a range of factors are involved.

From my perspective, I am comparing a Look Huez 785 vs a Caad12. In terms of the frame, I wouldn't say the Look is anymore aerodynamic (I could be proved wrong in a wind tunnel though) and is certainly not pitched as an aero frame. I appreciate though the aerodynamics in terms of summer riding (less clothing, different air pressure etc.) make me more aero and would result in a speed difference. Therefore it may well be that conditions make for greater aero gains than the bike itself.

I am comparing speeds/power/gears/cadence. On the Look, when comparing very similar power outputs, I am generally 2 gears down when compared to the Caad, whilst pedaling a higher cadence and am therefore going faster. I have always put this down to a greater % of power being applied through the frame, above aerodynamics, but I accept this is my gut feeling rather than scientific fact!

neeb

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

It is not a huge difference though, probably about 2-3kmh for the same power output when comparing my top bike against the winter training bike.

To me that's a pretty huge difference..

joeyhalloran said:

The speed difference will almost definitely be nothing to do with stiffness and everything to do with aerodynamics.

That's what I want to investigate. My current bikes are "high end" in terms of stiffness / quality of the carbon, weight etc, but one is a very non-aero frame design (Helium SLX), while the other is very early, 10-year-old aero tech (original Mk. I Scott Foil). Both with rim brakes.

The shapes of the tubes on the Foil are actually rather similar to what you'd now get on an all-round, aero-climbing bike, and I have a fairly aero cockpit on it and 60mm deep wheels. I'd be hard pushed to notice more than 0.5 km/h difference between it and the Helium though.

If you believe the blurb (I tend not to), modern top-end aero bikes are designed as integrated systems to minimise drag, with big advances in tube shapes in the last few years, and it actually makes a significant difference. I remain skeptical that a frame alone (or a frame / cockpit combination) can make a perceptable difference next to other factors such as clothing, helmet choice, bar width and especially position on the bike. But I've almost given up trying to find any data on this from objective testing - it simply doesn't seem to exist, which makes me think that the bike makers don't want it out there and try their best to make sure it isn't.

I'm sure there will be an aero benefit with these frames, I just don't believe it will be anything near what is claimed, and probably practically insignificant. I could be wrong, though.

Only way to find out is to try it myself in +/- controlled conditions (identical setup and multiple repetitions on the same route).

First.Aspect

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

The speed difference will almost definitely be nothing to do with stiffness and everything to do with aerodynamics

It's a fair point, and I am sure a range of factors are involved.

From my perspective, I am comparing a Look Huez 785 vs a Caad12. In terms of the frame, I wouldn't say the Look is anymore aerodynamic (I could be proved wrong in a wind tunnel though) and is certainly not pitched as an aero frame. I appreciate though the aerodynamics in terms of summer riding (less clothing, different air pressure etc.) make me more aero and would result in a speed difference. Therefore it may well be that conditions make for greater aero gains than the bike itself.

I am comparing speeds/power/gears/cadence. On the Look, when comparing very similar power outputs, I am generally 2 gears down when compared to the Caad, whilst pedaling a higher cadence and am therefore going faster. I have always put this down to a greater % of power being applied through the frame, above aerodynamics, but I accept this is my gut feeling rather than scientific fact!

Wheels and tyres the same?

What about the weather you take them out in. I'm guessing one of those bikes is more of a hack than the other.

Most importantly, is power input the same? I'm guessing you like riding one more than the other as well.

And sorry for being sceptical, but I can only sometimes but not always notice a one gear difference between a 10kg winter bike with mudguards and lights, and 7.2 kg highish end road bike. Makes me wonder if the "two gears down" claim might be a bit of an exaggeration.

joeyhalloran

I'd say it's likely that even a 10 year old aero frame with proper wheels and cockpit doesnt give much away to the modern generation of aero frames. A lot of the aero tech in the past ~5 years has been about integration and cockpit design.

I've no doubt modern ones are faster, but helmets, clothes, position and even diet and training probably make more of a difference.


Edit: oh, modern ones are probably lighter too, but that won't make all that much difference u less in the mountains

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Wheels and tyres the same?

What about the weather you take them out in. I'm guessing one of those bikes is more of a hack than the other.

Most importantly, is power input the same? I'm guessing you like riding one more than the other as well.

And sorry for being sceptical, but I can only sometimes but not always notice a one gear difference between a 10kg winter bike with mudguards and lights, and 7.2 kg highish end road bike. Makes me wonder if the "two gears down" claim might be a bit of an exaggeration.

No, wheels and tyres are different. As mentioned above, I fully accept that any speed differences are likely made up of a number of variables.

Bike weight is very similar, the Look is 6.6kg and the Caad is 7.2.

Yes, I am talking about speeds and gear selection for a similar power input (in the +/- 5 watts ballpark). I have found that the higher end CF frames I have owned, seem to 'feel' as though the power transfer is greater and just going on my own sense of logic, the fact I am able to turn bigger gears at higher cadence for greater speed (at similar power numbers) is suggestive of a greater % of power input being tarnsferred. Completely willing to accept though that this could well be disproved by scientific analysis!

Don't mind a bit of healthy scepticism at all. Anecdotally, having worn through at least 6 cassettes on the caad, the chain starts skipping on the 17/19 cogs as I know these are the most used. Having replaced the first cassette on the Look just a few weeks back, it is worn on the 15t cog which generally seems to be the gear I find myself in the most. Again though, I am happy to accept that the ability to ride the Look in a bigger gear may be down to other factors.

joeyhalloran

https://road.cc/content/tech-news/pogacar-would-be-2kmh-faster-different-bike-299775

Pogacar might be interested if we can find a high-end bike for rent to compare :P

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Interesting, I always remember this Secret Pro article from a while back where they talk about certain bikes and equipment being 'better' than others.

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/12/secret-pro-thoughts-froomes-positive-bikes-ride/

ugo.santalucia

joeyhalloran said:

https://road.cc/content/tech-news/pogacar-would-be-2kmh-faster-different-bike-299775

Pogacar might be interested if we can find a high-end bike for rent to compare :P

it is a shame that a legend like Boonen has to talk utter rubbish to make the headlines. I am sure he has so many more interesting things to say

dulwichiron

You can hire Canyons from these guys.. https://just-pedal.com/bikehire/

wobblebob

neeb said:

Ideally what I'd like to do of course is have one at home for a week or so, set it up *exactly* like my current bikes in terms of contact points, and ride it on routes I'm very familiar with, several times. Strikes me that that's the only way to cut through the tech marketing and find out if state-of-the-art bikes are actually any faster than what I've got, and if so by how much.

Buy one online and then return it within 14 days under distance selling regulations, you might have to pay postage to return it but cheaper than hiring.

(You also might have to spend 15k of your own money in order to get the bike in the first place, but you will get it back)

neeb

wobblebob said:

Buy one online and then return it within 14 days under distance selling regulations, you might have to pay postage to return it but cheaper than hiring.

(You also might have to spend 15k of your own money in order to get the bike in the first place, but you will get it back)

Would be quite a lot of stress.. ;-)

I suppose another option would be to buy a used bike that's only a year or two old and then sell it again (assuming I didn't just decide to keep it).

pblakeney

neeb said:

wobblebob said:

Buy one online and then return it within 14 days under distance selling regulations, you might have to pay postage to return it but cheaper than hiring.

(You also might have to spend 15k of your own money in order to get the bike in the first place, but you will get it back)

Would be quite a lot of stress.. ;-)

I suppose another option would be to buy a used bike that's only a year or two old and then sell it again (assuming I didn't just decide to keep it).

I dare say that's the best method* if you have a spare £6k-£9k.
*Similar to the saddle method but on a bigger scale. 😉

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1311&_nkw=pinarello+dogma+f12&_sacat=0

neeb

joeyhalloran said:

I'd say it's likely that even a 10 year old aero frame with proper wheels and cockpit doesnt give much away to the modern generation of aero frames. A lot of the aero tech in the past ~5 years has been about integration and cockpit design.

I've no doubt modern ones are faster, but helmets, clothes, position and even diet and training probably make more of a difference.


Edit: oh, modern ones are probably lighter too, but that won't make all that much difference u less in the mountains

Actually modern ones are quite a lot heavier...

I think a lot of what makes modern bikes look modern (apart from discs and integrated cockpits) is the paint jobs, TBH. That's why I had my Foil repainted a couple of years ago. For a 10 year old bike, I don't think it looks too retro...



This is the same bike (well, same frame - I've replaced the forks and everything else) about 10 years ago:

webboo

Clearly the bottom bike will be faster as the wall it’s leaning is much more aero than the breeze block wall in the top picture.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Sounds like a potential alternative business, hiring out dream bikes and then flog old stock as and when required.

katani

wobblebob said:

neeb said:

Ideally what I'd like to do of course is have one at home for a week or so, set it up *exactly* like my current bikes in terms of contact points, and ride it on routes I'm very familiar with, several times. Strikes me that that's the only way to cut through the tech marketing and find out if state-of-the-art bikes are actually any faster than what I've got, and if so by how much.

Buy one online and then return it within 14 days under distance selling regulations

Distance selling regs only allow you to return a unused item, in original packaging etc. and he wants to quite extensively test ride.

joeyhalloran

neeb said:

joeyhalloran said:

I'd say it's likely that even a 10 year old aero frame with proper wheels and cockpit doesnt give much away to the modern generation of aero frames. A lot of the aero tech in the past ~5 years has been about integration and cockpit design.

I've no doubt modern ones are faster, but helmets, clothes, position and even diet and training probably make more of a difference.


Edit: oh, modern ones are probably lighter too, but that won't make all that much difference u less in the mountains

Actually modern ones are quite a lot heavier...

I think a lot of what makes modern bikes look modern (apart from discs and integrated cockpits) is the paint jobs, TBH. That's why I had my Foil repainted a couple of years ago. For a 10 year old bike, I don't think it looks too retro...



This is the same bike (well, same frame - I've replaced the forks and everything else) about 10 years ago:

That is a very nice-looking bike. I used to have one and it was such a great ride. I can't imagine you're giving up much speed at all.

How much does it weigh? A lot of the latest aero bikes are really pushing the UCI weight limit.