Bike fits

webboo

First.Aspect said:

webboo said:

Given the number of portly gentleman that I see cycling in a John Wayne style. There’s some fairly sh*tty bike fitters around.

You should have seen the "before".

I guess these guys started out as even portlier walking round like they had balls like footballs or they had sh*t themselves.

MattFalle

souplesse has nothing at all to do with a bike fit no matter what the person selling you a lifestyle says.

having your seat height set won't make you tuck your knees in.

at the end of the day, you can't polish a clubbie.

daniel_b

I had a bike fit bought for me as a present that I went to last year, we went over 2 bikes, pedalling style, breathing techniques, and cleat position etc.

I've tinkered with my position a LOT from about 2007 when I properly started, and maybe 2015ish.

I turbo a lot, so had oodles of time and opportunity to adjust the saddle setback, stem height and length and used this to make myself more comfortable on the turbo bike and out on the road.

I was very curious to see what the bikefit chap would tell me, and what adjustments he might make.

I took my CR1, and my Synapse winter bike.
Both at the time had Arione saddles, both are 54cm frame size.

It was an interesting day, he was a very knowledgable and interesting bloke to chat to, and he made several observations.
He did adjust my cleats back a bit, which I was fine with, and have kept.

On the CR1 he adjusted the saddle down by 2 or 3mm, and when we came to look at the Synapse, he said from the measurements he had taken from the CR1, it was spot on, so that was good to know.

He did take a spacer off on the CR1 and put it under the stem as a test, but after monitoring my riding agreed it was better under.

My reason for going was mostly to see if I could get some more power out somehow, but as I had apparently mostly worked out my position, there wasn't much to come from it sadly.

I suspect, if you are either a newbie, or have back pain, aches and pains elsewhere, then a bike fit is likely worth it, but if you have been riding for a number of years, are comfy on the bike and have tinkered with your position to become comfy, the likelihood of dramatic changes are rather less likely.

I happen to have a bikefit on my account with my lbs, from a bike I bought an age ago, but plan to use that ofor a TT bike I am building up currently, thought I may as well use it, and see what they give me as a starting position, and then I can adjust from there if needed.

First.Aspect

Yup. It's a pro thing offered to the masses as a magic bullet.

daniel_b

Actually, I may take back what I said about being a newbie.

When I was a newbie, riding on the hoods and in the drops was alien to me, and my body was not used to it. Over the initial years my body acclimatised to the position both on the road and more so on the turbo, and I became more flexible and comfortable in that position - I suspect other muscles come into play as well, and strengthen as you ride.

I think you need a decent position to start out with (Any decent lbs or knowledgable friend/you tube video should be able to get you there though), but I think you need to let your body get used to the different riding positions, AND make adjustments yourself, before potentially going for a fit to see if what you have altered is along what they deem to be the correct path - IF you want to.

I was thinking I might be blown away by my bike fit, and would tell everyone to get one, but I guess it all depends on how well dialled in, by luck or otherwise, you have your current fit as to what level of change it will have on your riding.

For me it was minimal.

MattFalle

First.Aspect said:

Yup. It's a pro thing offered to the masses as a magic bullet.

bike fits
di2
disc brakes
£250 shorts

blimey, its like marketing heaven

First.Aspect

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

Yup. It's a pro thing offered to the masses as a magic bullet.

bike fits
di2
disc brakes
£250 shorts

blimey, its like marketing heaven

Di2 is fine. Non back compatible built-in redundancy Di2 is not, however. It would be like Apple updating the iPhone, changing the charging port and then removing the old ones from sale.

That's pretty much what they did, but other people make them.

Not so with some bike parts.

pblakeney

daniel_b said:

...Over the initial years my body acclimatised to the position both on the road and more so on the turbo, ...
For me it was minimal.

Curious about this.
With no wind resistance to overcome on the trainer I get lazy and ride on the tops. 🤔

MattFalle

First.Aspect said:

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

Yup. It's a pro thing offered to the masses as a magic bullet.

bike fits
di2
disc brakes
£250 shorts

blimey, its like marketing heaven

Di2 is fine. Non back compatible built-in redundancy Di2 is not, however. It would be like Apple updating the iPhone, changing the charging port and then removing the old ones from sale.

That's pretty much what they did, but other people make them.

Not so with some bike parts.

you've hit the nail on the head though - the fact that shimano are deliberately making their systems unusable for future mixing and matching, and, as we discovered you can't update or back date bits of kit without making them useless is pretty poor.

but people still lap it up...

daniel_b

pblakeney said:

daniel_b said:

...Over the initial years my body acclimatised to the position both on the road and more so on the turbo, ...
For me it was minimal.

Curious about this.
With no wind resistance to overcome on the trainer I get lazy and ride on the tops. 🤔

I did when I started, and then I realised I could make the most use of that time, so I spend some time on the tops, some on the hoods, and some in the drops.
If I do a really easy recovery session on the turbo, I tend to ride the entire time in the drops - just gets my body used to it, and then it feels that much easier/more comfortable when out on the road, and you get the extra aero benefits out there as well :-)

The more comfy it is, the more likely I am to adopt that position.

pblakeney

daniel_b said:

pblakeney said:

daniel_b said:

...Over the initial years my body acclimatised to the position both on the road and more so on the turbo, ...
For me it was minimal.

Curious about this.
With no wind resistance to overcome on the trainer I get lazy and ride on the tops. 🤔

I did when I started, and then I realised I could make the most use of that time, so I spend some time on the tops, some on the hoods, and some in the drops.
If I do a really easy recovery session on the turbo, I tend to ride the entire time in the drops - just gets my body used to it, and then it feels that much easier/more comfortable when out on the road, and you get the extra aero benefits out there as well :-)

The more comfy it is, the more likely I am to adopt that position.

Ah, okay. I mix it up too just for a change of position, and get out of the saddle too. My position is optimised for the hoods as I spend most time there on the road.
I find breathing easier on the tops when you are not fighting wind resistance. It is a compromise between aero and breathing on the road.

First.Aspect

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

Yup. It's a pro thing offered to the masses as a magic bullet.

bike fits
di2
disc brakes
£250 shorts

blimey, its like marketing heaven

Di2 is fine. Non back compatible built-in redundancy Di2 is not, however. It would be like Apple updating the iPhone, changing the charging port and then removing the old ones from sale.

That's pretty much what they did, but other people make them.

Not so with some bike parts.

you've hit the nail on the head though - the fact that shimano are deliberately making their systems unusable for future mixing and matching, and, as we discovered you can't update or back date bits of kit without making them useless is pretty poor.

but people still lap it up...

Perhaps someone will make a big etube to little etube adapter.

I suspect any original Di2 patents will expire in the next 5 or 6 years (product itself debuted in 2009, so already 12 years). This could leave the door open for more or less copies.

But then I've been hoping for that with the original Speedplay design and no one seems to have tried yet.

MattFalle

i think the fact that no one has released anything to work in/alongside di2 in 12 years tells us all we need to know....

First.Aspect

MattFalle said:

i think the fact that no one has released anything to work in/alongside di2 in 12 years tells us all we need to know....

Do you want a quick primer on patents MF?

As soon as a company makes a standard open, or it becomes open because the IP has expired (principally patents), anyone can copy it. This happened with the original freehub spline fitting, SPD and Look pedals and probably lots of other stuff. Bottom brackets perhaps. The aheadset certainly.

Not happened yet with the Di2 stuff because it's probably roughly 14-15 years old.

You can see other companies working around each other's IP though. There is no other good reason for semi-wireless, for example. And the original SRAM mechanical was created to get around the Shimano STI patents.

Just because it's not happened yet doesn't mean it won't happen.

MattFalle

So you couldn't design anything to run alongside it but using the di2 brains, anything from gear indicators to auto changing dependant on cadence/power output?

or is everything likely to be covered under the patent?

First.Aspect

You could design what you wanted. And even get patents for it. But you could conceivably need a licence to actually make, use it or sell it from Shimano, if it would otherwise infringe their existing patents. Which won't be offered, so why would anyone bother.

Those original patents will expire eventually. Then other players can try to replicate the old technology. Whether anyone else will want to sell 20 year old electronics technology is another matter of course.

davidof

DeVlaeminck said:

I've never had a bike fit and probably never will but I would be curious just to see how a fitter changed my position - just not curious enough to spend the time and money to find out.

#metoo
That would be five hours you could be on your bike.

pblakeney

First.Aspect said:

You could design what you wanted. And even get patents for it. But you could conceivably need a licence to actually make, use it or sell it from Shimano, if it would otherwise infringe their existing patents. Which won't be offered, so why would anyone bother.

Those original patents will expire eventually. Then other players can try to replicate the old technology. Whether anyone else will want to sell 20 year old electronics technology is another matter of course.

And therein lies the rub.
All can be avoided by not adopting electronics.

First.Aspect

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

You could design what you wanted. And even get patents for it. But you could conceivably need a licence to actually make, use it or sell it from Shimano, if it would otherwise infringe their existing patents. Which won't be offered, so why would anyone bother.

Those original patents will expire eventually. Then other players can try to replicate the old technology. Whether anyone else will want to sell 20 year old electronics technology is another matter of course.

And therein lies the rub.
All can be avoided by not adopting electronics.

Well no, there were patents for all of the mechanical sti systems as well. That's one reason they are all different.

And whilst it would be great to avoid electronic, the choice isn't good electronic Vs good mechanical any more is it? At least not if you want to use Shimano. Even with SRAM the mechanical stuff hasn't updated for 8 years. How long are they going to make it?

I have some old and clunky campag centaur on one bike. Am now tempted to get some red 22 while I can. Or some newer mechanical campag.

For the Di2 bike the EPS stuff becomes progressively more attractive. Yes I could just eventually get the new Shimano shifters, mechs and internal wiring, but if as a manufacturer you create a £2k barrier anyway, you are inviting people to defect.

MattFalle

First.Aspect said:

You could design what you wanted. And even get patents for it. But you could conceivably need a licence to actually make, use it or sell it from Shimano, if it would otherwise infringe their existing patents. Which won't be offered, so why would anyone bother.

Those original patents will expire eventually. Then other players can try to replicate the old technology. Whether anyone else will want to sell 20 year old electronics technology is another matter of course.

thing is, loads of people have bought into the lifestyle so loads of 1st gen di2 kicking round, and now prices have gone stupid people won't be able to afford to to buy newer stuff, so perhaps offering bolt ons is the way to go.

MattFalle

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

You could design what you wanted. And even get patents for it. But you could conceivably need a licence to actually make, use it or sell it from Shimano, if it would otherwise infringe their existing patents. Which won't be offered, so why would anyone bother.

Those original patents will expire eventually. Then other players can try to replicate the old technology. Whether anyone else will want to sell 20 year old electronics technology is another matter of course.

And therein lies the rub.
All can be avoided by not adopting electronics.

Well no, there were patents for all of the mechanical sti systems as well. That's one reason they are all different.

And whilst it would be great to avoid electronic, the choice isn't good electronic Vs good mechanical any more is it? At least not if you want to use Shimano. Even with SRAM the mechanical stuff hasn't updated for 8 years. How long are they going to make it?

I have some old and clunky campag centaur on one bike. Am now tempted to get some red 22 while I can. Or some newer mechanical campag.

For the Di2 bike the EPS stuff becomes progressively more attractive. Yes I could just eventually get the new Shimano shifters, mechs and internal wiring, but if as a manufacturer you create a £2k barrier anyway, you are inviting people to defect.

don't tell anyone but well set up mechanical red is as good, if not better, than di2 and its cheaper, lighter, more reluable .....

but hey, its not the lifestyle choice.

andyrr

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

You could design what you wanted. And even get patents for it. But you could conceivably need a licence to actually make, use it or sell it from Shimano, if it would otherwise infringe their existing patents. Which won't be offered, so why would anyone bother.

Those original patents will expire eventually. Then other players can try to replicate the old technology. Whether anyone else will want to sell 20 year old electronics technology is another matter of course.

And therein lies the rub.
All can be avoided by not adopting electronics.

Well no, there were patents for all of the mechanical sti systems as well. That's one reason they are all different.

And whilst it would be great to avoid electronic, the choice isn't good electronic Vs good mechanical any more is it? At least not if you want to use Shimano. Even with SRAM the mechanical stuff hasn't updated for 8 years. How long are they going to make it?

I have some old and clunky campag centaur on one bike. Am now tempted to get some red 22 while I can. Or some newer mechanical campag.

For the Di2 bike the EPS stuff becomes progressively more attractive. Yes I could just eventually get the new Shimano shifters, mechs and internal wiring, but if as a manufacturer you create a £2k barrier anyway, you are inviting people to defect.

don't tell anyone but well set up mechanical red is as good, if not better, than di2 and its cheaper, lighter, more reluable .....

but hey, its not the lifestyle choice.

Remember also to not tell anyone that choosing deep carbon rims just 'cause they go whoosh whoosh is an equal lifestyle choice. Di2 (which I'm highly unlikely to be using in the near future) seems to offer some riders real benefits l such as those with grip/movement issues in their hands.

ibr17xvii

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

You could design what you wanted. And even get patents for it. But you could conceivably need a licence to actually make, use it or sell it from Shimano, if it would otherwise infringe their existing patents. Which won't be offered, so why would anyone bother.

Those original patents will expire eventually. Then other players can try to replicate the old technology. Whether anyone else will want to sell 20 year old electronics technology is another matter of course.

And therein lies the rub.
All can be avoided by not adopting electronics.

Well no, there were patents for all of the mechanical sti systems as well. That's one reason they are all different.

And whilst it would be great to avoid electronic, the choice isn't good electronic Vs good mechanical any more is it? At least not if you want to use Shimano. Even with SRAM the mechanical stuff hasn't updated for 8 years. How long are they going to make it?

I have some old and clunky campag centaur on one bike. Am now tempted to get some red 22 while I can. Or some newer mechanical campag.

For the Di2 bike the EPS stuff becomes progressively more attractive. Yes I could just eventually get the new Shimano shifters, mechs and internal wiring, but if as a manufacturer you create a £2k barrier anyway, you are inviting people to defect.

don't tell anyone but well set up mechanical red is as good, if not better, than di2 and its cheaper, lighter, more reluable .....

but hey, its not the lifestyle choice.

But hey, that’s your opinion & not fact.

MattFalle

andyrr said:

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

You could design what you wanted. And even get patents for it. But you could conceivably need a licence to actually make, use it or sell it from Shimano, if it would otherwise infringe their existing patents. Which won't be offered, so why would anyone bother.

Those original patents will expire eventually. Then other players can try to replicate the old technology. Whether anyone else will want to sell 20 year old electronics technology is another matter of course.

And therein lies the rub.
All can be avoided by not adopting electronics.

Well no, there were patents for all of the mechanical sti systems as well. That's one reason they are all different.

And whilst it would be great to avoid electronic, the choice isn't good electronic Vs good mechanical any more is it? At least not if you want to use Shimano. Even with SRAM the mechanical stuff hasn't updated for 8 years. How long are they going to make it?

I have some old and clunky campag centaur on one bike. Am now tempted to get some red 22 while I can. Or some newer mechanical campag.

For the Di2 bike the EPS stuff becomes progressively more attractive. Yes I could just eventually get the new Shimano shifters, mechs and internal wiring, but if as a manufacturer you create a £2k barrier anyway, you are inviting people to defect.

don't tell anyone but well set up mechanical red is as good, if not better, than di2 and its cheaper, lighter, more reluable .....

but hey, its not the lifestyle choice.

Remember also to not tell anyone that choosing deep carbon rims just 'cause they go whoosh whoosh is an equal lifestyle choice. Di2 (which I'm highly unlikely to be using in the near future) seems to offer some riders real benefits l such as those with grip/movement issues in their hands.

nice dit fella. crack on.

MattFalle

ibr17xvii said:

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

You could design what you wanted. And even get patents for it. But you could conceivably need a licence to actually make, use it or sell it from Shimano, if it would otherwise infringe their existing patents. Which won't be offered, so why would anyone bother.

Those original patents will expire eventually. Then other players can try to replicate the old technology. Whether anyone else will want to sell 20 year old electronics technology is another matter of course.

And therein lies the rub.
All can be avoided by not adopting electronics.

Well no, there were patents for all of the mechanical sti systems as well. That's one reason they are all different.

And whilst it would be great to avoid electronic, the choice isn't good electronic Vs good mechanical any more is it? At least not if you want to use Shimano. Even with SRAM the mechanical stuff hasn't updated for 8 years. How long are they going to make it?

I have some old and clunky campag centaur on one bike. Am now tempted to get some red 22 while I can. Or some newer mechanical campag.

For the Di2 bike the EPS stuff becomes progressively more attractive. Yes I could just eventually get the new Shimano shifters, mechs and internal wiring, but if as a manufacturer you create a £2k barrier anyway, you are inviting people to defect.

don't tell anyone but well set up mechanical red is as good, if not better, than di2 and its cheaper, lighter, more reluable .....

but hey, its not the lifestyle choice.

But hey, that’s your opinion & not fact.

prove otherwise

ibr17xvii

MattFalle said:

ibr17xvii said:

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

You could design what you wanted. And even get patents for it. But you could conceivably need a licence to actually make, use it or sell it from Shimano, if it would otherwise infringe their existing patents. Which won't be offered, so why would anyone bother.

Those original patents will expire eventually. Then other players can try to replicate the old technology. Whether anyone else will want to sell 20 year old electronics technology is another matter of course.

And therein lies the rub.
All can be avoided by not adopting electronics.

Well no, there were patents for all of the mechanical sti systems as well. That's one reason they are all different.

And whilst it would be great to avoid electronic, the choice isn't good electronic Vs good mechanical any more is it? At least not if you want to use Shimano. Even with SRAM the mechanical stuff hasn't updated for 8 years. How long are they going to make it?

I have some old and clunky campag centaur on one bike. Am now tempted to get some red 22 while I can. Or some newer mechanical campag.

For the Di2 bike the EPS stuff becomes progressively more attractive. Yes I could just eventually get the new Shimano shifters, mechs and internal wiring, but if as a manufacturer you create a £2k barrier anyway, you are inviting people to defect.

don't tell anyone but well set up mechanical red is as good, if not better, than di2 and its cheaper, lighter, more reluable .....

but hey, its not the lifestyle choice.

But hey, that’s your opinion & not fact.

prove otherwise

You stated it, not up to me to prove or disprove it.

I assume you have some hard evidence to back up this fact.

Prove Di2 is a “lifestyle choice” whilst you’re at it.

ibr17xvii

MattFalle said:

andyrr said:

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

You could design what you wanted. And even get patents for it. But you could conceivably need a licence to actually make, use it or sell it from Shimano, if it would otherwise infringe their existing patents. Which won't be offered, so why would anyone bother.

Those original patents will expire eventually. Then other players can try to replicate the old technology. Whether anyone else will want to sell 20 year old electronics technology is another matter of course.

And therein lies the rub.
All can be avoided by not adopting electronics.

Well no, there were patents for all of the mechanical sti systems as well. That's one reason they are all different.

And whilst it would be great to avoid electronic, the choice isn't good electronic Vs good mechanical any more is it? At least not if you want to use Shimano. Even with SRAM the mechanical stuff hasn't updated for 8 years. How long are they going to make it?

I have some old and clunky campag centaur on one bike. Am now tempted to get some red 22 while I can. Or some newer mechanical campag.

For the Di2 bike the EPS stuff becomes progressively more attractive. Yes I could just eventually get the new Shimano shifters, mechs and internal wiring, but if as a manufacturer you create a £2k barrier anyway, you are inviting people to defect.

don't tell anyone but well set up mechanical red is as good, if not better, than di2 and its cheaper, lighter, more reluable .....

but hey, its not the lifestyle choice.

Remember also to not tell anyone that choosing deep carbon rims just 'cause they go whoosh whoosh is an equal lifestyle choice. Di2 (which I'm highly unlikely to be using in the near future) seems to offer some riders real benefits l such as those with grip/movement issues in their hands.

nice dit fella. crack on.

He’s right though.

andyrr

ibr17xvii said:

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

You could design what you wanted. And even get patents for it. But you could conceivably need a licence to actually make, use it or sell it from Shimano, if it would otherwise infringe their existing patents. Which won't be offered, so why would anyone bother.

Those original patents will expire eventually. Then other players can try to replicate the old technology. Whether anyone else will want to sell 20 year old electronics technology is another matter of course.

And therein lies the rub.
All can be avoided by not adopting electronics.

Well no, there were patents for all of the mechanical sti systems as well. That's one reason they are all different.

And whilst it would be great to avoid electronic, the choice isn't good electronic Vs good mechanical any more is it? At least not if you want to use Shimano. Even with SRAM the mechanical stuff hasn't updated for 8 years. How long are they going to make it?

I have some old and clunky campag centaur on one bike. Am now tempted to get some red 22 while I can. Or some newer mechanical campag.

For the Di2 bike the EPS stuff becomes progressively more attractive. Yes I could just eventually get the new Shimano shifters, mechs and internal wiring, but if as a manufacturer you create a £2k barrier anyway, you are inviting people to defect.

don't tell anyone but well set up mechanical red is as good, if not better, than di2 and its cheaper, lighter, more reluable .....

but hey, its not the lifestyle choice.

But hey, that’s your opinion & not fact.

The MattFalle deals in special facts though. The ones confirmed by what he sees in his little bubble, in a very Trumpian way.

MattFalle

ibr17xvii said:

MattFalle said:

andyrr said:

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

You could design what you wanted. And even get patents for it. But you could conceivably need a licence to actually make, use it or sell it from Shimano, if it would otherwise infringe their existing patents. Which won't be offered, so why would anyone bother.

Those original patents will expire eventually. Then other players can try to replicate the old technology. Whether anyone else will want to sell 20 year old electronics technology is another matter of course.

And therein lies the rub.
All can be avoided by not adopting electronics.

Well no, there were patents for all of the mechanical sti systems as well. That's one reason they are all different.

And whilst it would be great to avoid electronic, the choice isn't good electronic Vs good mechanical any more is it? At least not if you want to use Shimano. Even with SRAM the mechanical stuff hasn't updated for 8 years. How long are they going to make it?

I have some old and clunky campag centaur on one bike. Am now tempted to get some red 22 while I can. Or some newer mechanical campag.

For the Di2 bike the EPS stuff becomes progressively more attractive. Yes I could just eventually get the new Shimano shifters, mechs and internal wiring, but if as a manufacturer you create a £2k barrier anyway, you are inviting people to defect.

don't tell anyone but well set up mechanical red is as good, if not better, than di2 and its cheaper, lighter, more reluable .....

but hey, its not the lifestyle choice.

Remember also to not tell anyone that choosing deep carbon rims just 'cause they go whoosh whoosh is an equal lifestyle choice. Di2 (which I'm highly unlikely to be using in the near future) seems to offer some riders real benefits l such as those with grip/movement issues in their hands.

nice dit fella. crack on.

He’s right though.

so di2 is designed for people with bad hands.

right.

MattFalle

andyrr said:

ibr17xvii said:

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

You could design what you wanted. And even get patents for it. But you could conceivably need a licence to actually make, use it or sell it from Shimano, if it would otherwise infringe their existing patents. Which won't be offered, so why would anyone bother.

Those original patents will expire eventually. Then other players can try to replicate the old technology. Whether anyone else will want to sell 20 year old electronics technology is another matter of course.

And therein lies the rub.
All can be avoided by not adopting electronics.

Well no, there were patents for all of the mechanical sti systems as well. That's one reason they are all different.

And whilst it would be great to avoid electronic, the choice isn't good electronic Vs good mechanical any more is it? At least not if you want to use Shimano. Even with SRAM the mechanical stuff hasn't updated for 8 years. How long are they going to make it?

I have some old and clunky campag centaur on one bike. Am now tempted to get some red 22 while I can. Or some newer mechanical campag.

For the Di2 bike the EPS stuff becomes progressively more attractive. Yes I could just eventually get the new Shimano shifters, mechs and internal wiring, but if as a manufacturer you create a £2k barrier anyway, you are inviting people to defect.

don't tell anyone but well set up mechanical red is as good, if not better, than di2 and its cheaper, lighter, more reluable .....

but hey, its not the lifestyle choice.

But hey, that’s your opinion & not fact.

The MattFalle deals in special facts though. The ones confirmed by what he sees in his little bubble, in a very Trumpian way.

you're the one who said di2 was for people with bad hands.