Honourable politicians.
Comments
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Rather like his father, Hilary Benn-especially given his speech re Syria in December 2015.I disapprove of what you say but will defend....your right to say it. Francois-Marie Arouet Voltaire08 Cotic Soda-deceased!10 Bianchi 928 c2c23 Marin Nicasio20
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It seemed such an obvious question. I hadn't heard someone had asked it; good that they did. Who was it who didn't answer?First.Aspect said:
Someone asked whether a third referendum could be called by those who didn't like the result of indyref2 on r5 last night. As you might expect, it wasn't answered.oblongomaculatus said:
How do you mean, fake news? I was paraphrasing her reaction to the independence referendum, but her attitude ever since has been to have another one as soon as possible, as far as I can see simply because she didn't agree with the result. Much as with the Brexit referendum. For months if not years after, there was frantic manoeuvring by those who didn't like the result, attempting to have it overturned. Politicians make much of their love of democracy - the will of the people and so on - but when the will of the people doesn't tally with what the politicians think, it tends to get trampled on.pblakeney said:
Fake news.oblongomaculatus said:Example: "This is a once in a generation opportunity." Nicola Sturgeon, 2014.
"We must have another referendum." Nicola Sturgeon, five minutes after the result didn't go the way she wanted.
Has anyone asked her, if there's another one, and it goes the same way, will she be calling for a third, and a fourth, until people vote for independence?
I always liked Tony Benn even if I disagreed with his politics he appeared to be honourable.
Given that Scotland leaving would affect England, Wales and Northern Ireland, has anyone suggested people there should be allowed to vote on Scottish Independence too? It would be worth it just to see Nicola Sturgeon splutter with indignation at the thought.0 -
If a PM has kids/husband of appropriate age then they should agree to go to the front line before war can be declaredMattFalle said:
that evil witch Thatcher? If you class sending young lads and lasses to war to be wounded, suffer life changing injuries and bekilled and to kill other young lads in order to win an election as honourable then i think we may have a difference in opinion.briantrumpet said:If this isn't just recent politicians, I can't imagine Willie Whitelaw, Douglas Hurd, Lord Carrington or Geoffrey Howe would have been dishonourable. Nor Shirley Williams. Or Margaret Thatcher, come to that, however much she might have been disliked by some.
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I didn't get who it was I'm afraid. Was out on my bike and my focus tends to drift in and out with the radio reception. Was during Stephen Nolan's prog last night, just after 8 I think. The usual shouty SNP person sounding like Mel Gibson.oblongomaculatus said:
It seemed such an obvious question. I hadn't heard someone had asked it; good that they did. Who was it who didn't answer?First.Aspect said:
Someone asked whether a third referendum could be called by those who didn't like the result of indyref2 on r5 last night. As you might expect, it wasn't answered.oblongomaculatus said:
How do you mean, fake news? I was paraphrasing her reaction to the independence referendum, but her attitude ever since has been to have another one as soon as possible, as far as I can see simply because she didn't agree with the result. Much as with the Brexit referendum. For months if not years after, there was frantic manoeuvring by those who didn't like the result, attempting to have it overturned. Politicians make much of their love of democracy - the will of the people and so on - but when the will of the people doesn't tally with what the politicians think, it tends to get trampled on.pblakeney said:
Fake news.oblongomaculatus said:Example: "This is a once in a generation opportunity." Nicola Sturgeon, 2014.
"We must have another referendum." Nicola Sturgeon, five minutes after the result didn't go the way she wanted.
Has anyone asked her, if there's another one, and it goes the same way, will she be calling for a third, and a fourth, until people vote for independence?
I always liked Tony Benn even if I disagreed with his politics he appeared to be honourable.
Given that Scotland leaving would affect England, Wales and Northern Ireland, has anyone suggested people there should be allowed to vote on Scottish Independence too? It would be worth it just to see Nicola Sturgeon splutter with indignation at the thought.0 -
The other thing to note on Scottish Independence is that Sturgeon is now saying it can wait until after the recovery which I assume is an admission they need the financial support of the UK Government to recover from the financial impact of Covid. It doesn't feel like a country ready for independence in that case.0
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Can anyone identify a military conflict in which the decision to send troops wasn't at least partly political?surrey_commuter said:
If a PM has kids/husband of appropriate age then they should agree to go to the front line before war can be declaredMattFalle said:
that evil witch Thatcher? If you class sending young lads and lasses to war to be wounded, suffer life changing injuries and bekilled and to kill other young lads in order to win an election as honourable then i think we may have a difference in opinion.briantrumpet said:If this isn't just recent politicians, I can't imagine Willie Whitelaw, Douglas Hurd, Lord Carrington or Geoffrey Howe would have been dishonourable. Nor Shirley Williams. Or Margaret Thatcher, come to that, however much she might have been disliked by some.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Helpfully vague. But if you listen carefully, "the recovery" has to last until end 2023 at the latest, to fall within "first half of the parliament". How naive is that?Pross said:The other thing to note on Scottish Independence is that Sturgeon is now saying it can wait until after the recovery which I assume is an admission they need the financial support of the UK Government to recover from the financial impact of Covid. It doesn't feel like a country ready for independence in that case.
The SNP has not run the country in a way intended to set it up for independence, they've just been chasing votes. All of the free this, free that we were arguing about last week has not been paid for by much in the way of tax increase, but instead by starving local councils of money and by spending much, much more than the country can afford on things it doesn't really need.
Any rational assessment would be that independence is a bad idea. The "case" for independence is anti-English sentiment and that's about it.2 -
Now that is a real can of worms!rjsterry said:
Can anyone identify a military conflict in which the decision to send troops wasn't at least partly political?surrey_commuter said:
If a PM has kids/husband of appropriate age then they should agree to go to the front line before war can be declaredMattFalle said:
that evil witch Thatcher? If you class sending young lads and lasses to war to be wounded, suffer life changing injuries and bekilled and to kill other young lads in order to win an election as honourable then i think we may have a difference in opinion.briantrumpet said:If this isn't just recent politicians, I can't imagine Willie Whitelaw, Douglas Hurd, Lord Carrington or Geoffrey Howe would have been dishonourable. Nor Shirley Williams. Or Margaret Thatcher, come to that, however much she might have been disliked by some.
Undoubtedly there have been occasions where the UK has sent 'advisers' ie Special Forces to conflicts but of course HMG never comments on such deployments but any PM with a majority will always win a vote on wether to go to war.I disapprove of what you say but will defend....your right to say it. Francois-Marie Arouet Voltaire08 Cotic Soda-deceased!10 Bianchi 928 c2c23 Marin Nicasio20 -
Fake news as in she never said it. Find the quote if you don’t believe me.oblongomaculatus said:
How do you mean, fake news? I was paraphrasing her reaction to the independence referendum, but her attitude ever since has been to have another one as soon as possible, as far as I can see simply because she didn't agree with the result. Much as with the Brexit referendum. For months if not years after, there was frantic manoeuvring by those who didn't like the result, attempting to have it overturned. Politicians make much of their love of democracy - the will of the people and so on - but when the will of the people doesn't tally with what the politicians think, it tends to get trampled on.pblakeney said:
Fake news.oblongomaculatus said:Example: "This is a once in a generation opportunity." Nicola Sturgeon, 2014.
"We must have another referendum." Nicola Sturgeon, five minutes after the result didn't go the way she wanted.
Has anyone asked her, if there's another one, and it goes the same way, will she be calling for a third, and a fourth, until people vote for independence?
I always liked Tony Benn even if I disagreed with his politics he appeared to be honourable.
I have no intention of going down the Indy rabbit hole.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
That's kind of my point. Signing up is effectively putting yourself at the whim of the PM with relatively little parliamentary oversight.thesquireofbanwell said:
Now that is a real can of worms!rjsterry said:
Can anyone identify a military conflict in which the decision to send troops wasn't at least partly political?surrey_commuter said:
If a PM has kids/husband of appropriate age then they should agree to go to the front line before war can be declaredMattFalle said:
that evil witch Thatcher? If you class sending young lads and lasses to war to be wounded, suffer life changing injuries and bekilled and to kill other young lads in order to win an election as honourable then i think we may have a difference in opinion.briantrumpet said:If this isn't just recent politicians, I can't imagine Willie Whitelaw, Douglas Hurd, Lord Carrington or Geoffrey Howe would have been dishonourable. Nor Shirley Williams. Or Margaret Thatcher, come to that, however much she might have been disliked by some.
Undoubtedly there have been occasions where the UK has sent 'advisers' ie Special Forces to conflicts but of course HMG never comments on such deployments but any PM with a majority will always win a vote on wether to go to war.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-24147303pblakeney said:
Fake news as in she never said it. Find the quote if you don’t believe me.oblongomaculatus said:
How do you mean, fake news? I was paraphrasing her reaction to the independence referendum, but her attitude ever since has been to have another one as soon as possible, as far as I can see simply because she didn't agree with the result. Much as with the Brexit referendum. For months if not years after, there was frantic manoeuvring by those who didn't like the result, attempting to have it overturned. Politicians make much of their love of democracy - the will of the people and so on - but when the will of the people doesn't tally with what the politicians think, it tends to get trampled on.pblakeney said:
Fake news.oblongomaculatus said:Example: "This is a once in a generation opportunity." Nicola Sturgeon, 2014.
"We must have another referendum." Nicola Sturgeon, five minutes after the result didn't go the way she wanted.
Has anyone asked her, if there's another one, and it goes the same way, will she be calling for a third, and a fourth, until people vote for independence?
I always liked Tony Benn even if I disagreed with his politics he appeared to be honourable.
I have no intention of going down the Indy rabbit hole.
She says it twice at about 4 minutes 50 into this clip. The clip itself is actually unintentionally hysterical in the sense that she makes some very bold claims about the state of the Scottish economy and how it will improve post independence which she must know are out and out falsehoods.0 -
Re the economy, it was all based on a high oil price at the time of the referendum.shortfall said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-24147303pblakeney said:
Fake news as in she never said it. Find the quote if you don’t believe me.oblongomaculatus said:
How do you mean, fake news? I was paraphrasing her reaction to the independence referendum, but her attitude ever since has been to have another one as soon as possible, as far as I can see simply because she didn't agree with the result. Much as with the Brexit referendum. For months if not years after, there was frantic manoeuvring by those who didn't like the result, attempting to have it overturned. Politicians make much of their love of democracy - the will of the people and so on - but when the will of the people doesn't tally with what the politicians think, it tends to get trampled on.pblakeney said:
Fake news.oblongomaculatus said:Example: "This is a once in a generation opportunity." Nicola Sturgeon, 2014.
"We must have another referendum." Nicola Sturgeon, five minutes after the result didn't go the way she wanted.
Has anyone asked her, if there's another one, and it goes the same way, will she be calling for a third, and a fourth, until people vote for independence?
I always liked Tony Benn even if I disagreed with his politics he appeared to be honourable.
I have no intention of going down the Indy rabbit hole.
She says it twice at about 4 minutes 50 into this clip. The clip itself is actually unintentionally hysterical in the sense that she makes some very bold claims about the state of the Scottish economy and how it will improve post independence which she must know are out and out falsehoods.
Easy to get creative with the maths under those circumstances.
I guess opponents need to get back to the economic arguments and rework those numbers with actual oil revenues to show how in the toilet Scotland would be.0 -
This. The higher you climb the ladder the harder it becomes to be honest and honourable. And you can’t be honest with the media. They’ll rip you to shreds. Career politicians are the worst and shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near politics. Maybe people from certain professions could be forced to be politicians for a set period like jury service. Or we could be governed by scientists and robots or better still, robots programmed by scientists.rick_chasey said:Quite hard to be honourable in the top job. You get given too many Sophie’s choices
Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי0 -
seanoconn said:
This. The higher you climb the ladder the harder it becomes to be honest and honourable. And you can’t be honest with the media. They’ll rip you to shreds. Career politicians are the worst and shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near politics. Maybe people from certain professions could be forced to be politicians for a set period like jury service. Or we could be governed by scientists and robots or better still, robots programmed by scientists.rick_chasey said:Quite hard to be honourable in the top job. You get given too many Sophie’s choices
I hate to say it, but scientists aren't necessarily the best at making political decisions or persuading a sceptical (or sometimes, stupid) public.0 -
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There must be a chemical formula for good politics.rick_chasey said:Lol what can science tell you about politics?
Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי0 -
It was made in 2013 which was unknown to me, but fair point, well made.shortfall said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-24147303pblakeney said:
Fake news as in she never said it. Find the quote if you don’t believe me.oblongomaculatus said:
How do you mean, fake news? I was paraphrasing her reaction to the independence referendum, but her attitude ever since has been to have another one as soon as possible, as far as I can see simply because she didn't agree with the result. Much as with the Brexit referendum. For months if not years after, there was frantic manoeuvring by those who didn't like the result, attempting to have it overturned. Politicians make much of their love of democracy - the will of the people and so on - but when the will of the people doesn't tally with what the politicians think, it tends to get trampled on.pblakeney said:
Fake news.oblongomaculatus said:Example: "This is a once in a generation opportunity." Nicola Sturgeon, 2014.
"We must have another referendum." Nicola Sturgeon, five minutes after the result didn't go the way she wanted.
Has anyone asked her, if there's another one, and it goes the same way, will she be calling for a third, and a fourth, until people vote for independence?
I always liked Tony Benn even if I disagreed with his politics he appeared to be honourable.
I have no intention of going down the Indy rabbit hole.
She says it twice at about 4 minutes 50 into this clip. The clip itself is actually unintentionally hysterical in the sense that she makes some very bold claims about the state of the Scottish economy and how it will improve post independence which she must know are out and out falsehoods.
Hands up.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.1 -
There is a chemical formula for bull shit by it is very complicated.seanoconn said:
There must be a chemical formula for good politics.rick_chasey said:Lol what can science tell you about politics?
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On a similar Lib Dem vibe, I'd add Charles Kennedy to the list as someone I've always respected.MattFalle said:Paddy Ashdown
Being one of the few Lib Dem MP's to vote against the coalition as he could see it would be against the wishes of most of the Lib Dem voters was an honourable move in my opinion.0 -
Double Post0
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Thanks for finding that. I was pretty sure I remembered she was saying it, or variations of it, for a long time in the build up to the referendum; once in a generation, once in a lifetime, once and for all, etc, obviously not thinking for a second about the possibility of the vote not going the way she wanted. As soon as it did, she suddenly started looking for reasons to have another one. She seems a trifle obsessed, I think.shortfall said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-24147303pblakeney said:
Fake news as in she never said it. Find the quote if you don’t believe me.oblongomaculatus said:
How do you mean, fake news? I was paraphrasing her reaction to the independence referendum, but her attitude ever since has been to have another one as soon as possible, as far as I can see simply because she didn't agree with the result. Much as with the Brexit referendum. For months if not years after, there was frantic manoeuvring by those who didn't like the result, attempting to have it overturned. Politicians make much of their love of democracy - the will of the people and so on - but when the will of the people doesn't tally with what the politicians think, it tends to get trampled on.pblakeney said:
Fake news.oblongomaculatus said:Example: "This is a once in a generation opportunity." Nicola Sturgeon, 2014.
"We must have another referendum." Nicola Sturgeon, five minutes after the result didn't go the way she wanted.
Has anyone asked her, if there's another one, and it goes the same way, will she be calling for a third, and a fourth, until people vote for independence?
I always liked Tony Benn even if I disagreed with his politics he appeared to be honourable.
I have no intention of going down the Indy rabbit hole.
She says it twice at about 4 minutes 50 into this clip. The clip itself is actually unintentionally hysterical in the sense that she makes some very bold claims about the state of the Scottish economy and how it will improve post independence which she must know are out and out falsehoods.
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I've never understood the ongoing antipathy toward the English. Take football. In any World Cup where England have qualified, but Scotland haven't (ie most of them), Scottish football fans reportedly revel in cheering on whoever England are playing (even Germany). This attitude seems to be almost entirely one way. On the rare occasions when Scotland qualify but England don't, eg 1974 or 1978, I seem to remember the whole of the UK getting behind the Scotland team, even if there was a certain amount of amusement when Scotland failed to get out of the group stage from a seemingly unassailable position.First.Aspect said:
Helpfully vague. But if you listen carefully, "the recovery" has to last until end 2023 at the latest, to fall within "first half of the parliament". How naive is that?Pross said:The other thing to note on Scottish Independence is that Sturgeon is now saying it can wait until after the recovery which I assume is an admission they need the financial support of the UK Government to recover from the financial impact of Covid. It doesn't feel like a country ready for independence in that case.
The SNP has not run the country in a way intended to set it up for independence, they've just been chasing votes. All of the free this, free that we were arguing about last week has not been paid for by much in the way of tax increase, but instead by starving local councils of money and by spending much, much more than the country can afford on things it doesn't really need.
Any rational assessment would be that independence is a bad idea. The "case" for independence is anti-English sentiment and that's about it.
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^ I take it you're English then.
Edited to add an example of a popular song for Scotland footie fans back in the day. To the tune of the chorus of 'Those Were the Days' by Mary Hopkin
"We xxxxin' hate England
We xxxxin' hate England
We xxxxin' hate, we xxxxin' hate England
We xxxxin' hate...." and so on ad infinitum
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I've lived in Scotland most of my adult life. I still don't understand it.orraloon said:^ I take it you're English then.
It seems to originate from a misunderstanding of history, of atrocities inflicted upon Scotland after unification. But those were largely conducted by Scottish lords, sorry lairds, on their own tenants.
It is very little Britain now, to be honest. Casting Westminster as some distant evil, when it is easier to get there by far from Glasgow than it is to get to Lerwick.
I've said it before on this forum, but the SNP are basically racists.1 -
👆First.Aspect said:
I've lived in Scotland most of my adult life. I still don't understand it.orraloon said:^ I take it you're English then.
It seems to originate from a misunderstanding of history, of atrocities inflicted upon Scotland after unification. But those were largely conducted by Scottish lords, sorry lairds, on their own tenants.
It is very little Britain now, to be honest. Casting Westminster as some distant evil, when it is easier to get there by far from Glasgow than it is to get to Lerwick.
I've said it before on this forum, but the SNP are basically racists.
What he says, in spades.0 -
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Yes. I called her a populist. He has more actual policies though.rick_chasey said:I hope you can see the parallels between Sturgeon and BoJo, short.
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Yes, I was born there, but I don't feel English, or British, or European, or whatever. I have a long standing aversion to that "my gang is better than your gang" mentality, on which the whole of the political system is based.orraloon said:^ I take it you're English then.
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You recon?First.Aspect said:
Yes. I called her a populist. He has more actual policies though.rick_chasey said:I hope you can see the parallels between Sturgeon and BoJo, short.
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Yes. Absolutely. It is a race to the bottom though.rick_chasey said:
You recon?First.Aspect said:
Yes. I called her a populist. He has more actual policies though.rick_chasey said:I hope you can see the parallels between Sturgeon and BoJo, short.
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