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  • JezyboyJezyboy Posts: 688

    Pross said:

    I assume the FA will say any English players in breakaway teams will not be eligible for international duty as has happened previously when rugby clubs have taken a similar approach (they will then backtrack when they realise the players are more keen to earn big money that play for their country and they will lose all their top players).

    not sure why the FA will do that when they did not do so for the Premier league. Usually best to assume the FA will make the worse decision possible
    For the threat to work it also relies on international football being the pinnacle of the game. I'm not sure on that one.



  • morstarmorstar Posts: 4,330

    I thought this was not a great article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/18/only-someone-who-truly-hates-football-can-be-behind-a-european-super-league

    The lack of jeopardy that many critics have identified as one of the major drawbacks of a super league is in fact the entire point: a constantly bubbling steady-state tension in which nothing really matters, and so everything does. Missed Liverpool vs Real Madrid? Never mind, they’re playing again tomorrow night, and then three nights after that: football as on-demand stream, football as non-fungible consumer good, football that fits into your life as smoothly as an Ocado delivery slot.


    Reminded me of this



    Most of the top teams play in excess of 50 games a year.

    Premier league is midly more competitive but a whole bunch of games are borderline dead-rubbers.


    I also don't understand why the idea that a closed shop is not competitive? Plenty of sports have that structure and they're as competitive as the prem.
    Not everybodies cup of tea but the NFL competition structure is super compelling for the following reasons.

    1) the season is really short so every game matters
    2) over half the teams can still potentially win the biggest prize until very late in the season.
    3) even if you are doing well, there are strong incentives to keep winning
    4) salary cap
    5) genuine aim of competitive parity

    Honestly, I’m not going to argue whether sport a or b is better but historical league structures with massively ingrained bias are not what people claim. Promotion and relegation don’t affect the top teams unless they really are woeful.
  • verylonglegsverylonglegs Posts: 3,574

    The only organisation that can effectively oppose this is the premier league (and other leagues). Banning players, who play for free, from internationals isn't going to work.

    It's what I said earlier, it will come down to whether the premier league is prepared to try and get by without those six clubs.

    Also, these 'the death of football' statements, I'm old enough to remember the exact same being said when the premier league was created.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,879 Lives Here
    morstar said:

    I thought this was not a great article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/18/only-someone-who-truly-hates-football-can-be-behind-a-european-super-league

    The lack of jeopardy that many critics have identified as one of the major drawbacks of a super league is in fact the entire point: a constantly bubbling steady-state tension in which nothing really matters, and so everything does. Missed Liverpool vs Real Madrid? Never mind, they’re playing again tomorrow night, and then three nights after that: football as on-demand stream, football as non-fungible consumer good, football that fits into your life as smoothly as an Ocado delivery slot.


    Reminded me of this



    Most of the top teams play in excess of 50 games a year.

    Premier league is midly more competitive but a whole bunch of games are borderline dead-rubbers.


    I also don't understand why the idea that a closed shop is not competitive? Plenty of sports have that structure and they're as competitive as the prem.
    Not everybodies cup of tea but the NFL competition structure is super compelling for the following reasons.

    1) the season is really short so every game matters
    2) over half the teams can still potentially win the biggest prize until very late in the season.
    3) even if you are doing well, there are strong incentives to keep winning
    4) salary cap
    5) genuine aim of competitive parity

    Honestly, I’m not going to argue whether sport a or b is better but historical league structures with massively ingrained bias are not what people claim. Promotion and relegation don’t affect the top teams unless they really are woeful.
    Yeah agreed.

    I suspect that is what the ESL is really about; US fans.

    I have recently got into the NFL for the reasons you describe above (it also dovetails remarkably well with the cycling season)

    We watch the Olympics, not because we're necessarily really into all the sports but because we know it's a once-in-four-year moment and so there is enormous jeopardy.

    I think there is a broader interesting debate about what the role of sport and professional sports is in society.

    I think it is a bit much of a lot of the upset fans of clubs who are looking to split to complain about the money when they welcomed money from all corners if it meant their team would be more likely to win, even if it was to the detriment of the competition.

    With the internationalisation of the teams, the link to the region is smaller and smaller so I guess this was inevitable anyway.


  • laurentianlaurentian Posts: 1,816
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 15,269
    morstar said:

    Promotion and relegation don’t affect the top teams unless they really are woeful.

    Ask Leeds fans.
    Took them a long time to go from top the Premier League and Champions League to lower leagues then back to middle Premier League.
    Financial woes could hit any of the big teams if a backer pulls out.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 22,100
    edited 19 April
    A lot of my passing interest in this is to do with how it could affect other sports. UEFA need to have a quick look at rugby to see how players value money vs country...

    (Playing for your country already being much less important in football)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 12,610

    The only organisation that can effectively oppose this is the premier league (and other leagues). Banning players, who play for free, from internationals isn't going to work.

    It's what I said earlier, it will come down to whether the premier league is prepared to try and get by without those six clubs.

    Also, these 'the death of football' statements, I'm old enough to remember the exact same being said when the premier league was created.
    If the premier did that, I think the "big six" would drop the plan. Unfortunately, I suspect the premier league can't.

  • ProssPross Posts: 27,085

    The only organisation that can effectively oppose this is the premier league (and other leagues). Banning players, who play for free, from internationals isn't going to work.

    It's what I said earlier, it will come down to whether the premier league is prepared to try and get by without those six clubs.

    Also, these 'the death of football' statements, I'm old enough to remember the exact same being said when the premier league was created.
    The introduction of the Premier League was very different though. It feels more like a new organisation took over the running of the top division and renamed it. Promotion and relegation remained constant albeit with some tinkering on playoffs.

    Introducing a league with no promotion or relegation is a completely different issue. They've done it with some of the rugby structure here - my team has won all bar a single match in the last three completed seasons so were Champions three years on the trot and were unbeaten at the time Covid finished last season. They haven't lost a league match in 4 years now - they lost a cup semi-final to the team that has been champions of the league above by 2 points but no promotion as it was decided to ringfence the top division to allow for player development and to improve quality at the Regions. Take a look at the performance of the Regions in that period and you'll see they have got worse if anything
  • laurentianlaurentian Posts: 1,816
    edited 19 April
    I'm a Northampton Town fan. We are currently dicing with relegation to League Two. It wasn't that long ago that we were playing Man City in that league. It now seems that Manchester City and others are happy to deny clubs like Northampton the opportunity to do what they did and become a giant of the Premier League or European football.

    It stinks
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,879 Lives Here
    what's to say that the ESL will get the fans anyway? I mean, if it's the death of football, they'll come skulking back.
  • JezyboyJezyboy Posts: 688

    morstar said:

    I thought this was not a great article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/18/only-someone-who-truly-hates-football-can-be-behind-a-european-super-league

    The lack of jeopardy that many critics have identified as one of the major drawbacks of a super league is in fact the entire point: a constantly bubbling steady-state tension in which nothing really matters, and so everything does. Missed Liverpool vs Real Madrid? Never mind, they’re playing again tomorrow night, and then three nights after that: football as on-demand stream, football as non-fungible consumer good, football that fits into your life as smoothly as an Ocado delivery slot.


    Reminded me of this



    Most of the top teams play in excess of 50 games a year.

    Premier league is midly more competitive but a whole bunch of games are borderline dead-rubbers.


    I also don't understand why the idea that a closed shop is not competitive? Plenty of sports have that structure and they're as competitive as the prem.
    Not everybodies cup of tea but the NFL competition structure is super compelling for the following reasons.

    1) the season is really short so every game matters
    2) over half the teams can still potentially win the biggest prize until very late in the season.
    3) even if you are doing well, there are strong incentives to keep winning
    4) salary cap
    5) genuine aim of competitive parity

    Honestly, I’m not going to argue whether sport a or b is better but historical league structures with massively ingrained bias are not what people claim. Promotion and relegation don’t affect the top teams unless they really are woeful.
    Yeah agreed.

    I suspect that is what the ESL is really about; US fans.

    I have recently got into the NFL for the reasons you describe above (it also dovetails remarkably well with the cycling season)

    We watch the Olympics, not because we're necessarily really into all the sports but because we know it's a once-in-four-year moment and so there is enormous jeopardy.

    I think there is a broader interesting debate about what the role of sport and professional sports is in society.

    I think it is a bit much of a lot of the upset fans of clubs who are looking to split to complain about the money when they welcomed money from all corners if it meant their team would be more likely to win, even if it was to the detriment of the competition.

    With the internationalisation of the teams, the link to the region is smaller and smaller so I guess this was inevitable anyway.


    One thing I'll say about USAnian sports fans.

    The atmosphere at the games is lacking compared to footy.

    Sinking craft beer in the sun watching baseball is a nice way to pass the hours though.
  • Let the Charlie Big Potato's go off and form their crappy league. May seem aspirational now but the prospect of them playing each other year after year is mind numbingly tedious as has been proven by the now lack of interest in the CL. European competition used to be something special.

    The Championship is a massively competitive league and all the better for it. Let the 'big boys' flounce off with their billion dollar contracts while the rest of us enjoy a competitive league structure.

    The likes of Sunderland, Ipswich and Portsmouth are all big, big clubs who have fallen from grace and are now in League 1.

    I'd probably actually start watching the PL again.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,879 Lives Here
    Jezyboy said:

    morstar said:

    I thought this was not a great article.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/18/only-someone-who-truly-hates-football-can-be-behind-a-european-super-league

    The lack of jeopardy that many critics have identified as one of the major drawbacks of a super league is in fact the entire point: a constantly bubbling steady-state tension in which nothing really matters, and so everything does. Missed Liverpool vs Real Madrid? Never mind, they’re playing again tomorrow night, and then three nights after that: football as on-demand stream, football as non-fungible consumer good, football that fits into your life as smoothly as an Ocado delivery slot.


    Reminded me of this



    Most of the top teams play in excess of 50 games a year.

    Premier league is midly more competitive but a whole bunch of games are borderline dead-rubbers.


    I also don't understand why the idea that a closed shop is not competitive? Plenty of sports have that structure and they're as competitive as the prem.
    Not everybodies cup of tea but the NFL competition structure is super compelling for the following reasons.

    1) the season is really short so every game matters
    2) over half the teams can still potentially win the biggest prize until very late in the season.
    3) even if you are doing well, there are strong incentives to keep winning
    4) salary cap
    5) genuine aim of competitive parity

    Honestly, I’m not going to argue whether sport a or b is better but historical league structures with massively ingrained bias are not what people claim. Promotion and relegation don’t affect the top teams unless they really are woeful.
    Yeah agreed.

    I suspect that is what the ESL is really about; US fans.

    I have recently got into the NFL for the reasons you describe above (it also dovetails remarkably well with the cycling season)

    We watch the Olympics, not because we're necessarily really into all the sports but because we know it's a once-in-four-year moment and so there is enormous jeopardy.

    I think there is a broader interesting debate about what the role of sport and professional sports is in society.

    I think it is a bit much of a lot of the upset fans of clubs who are looking to split to complain about the money when they welcomed money from all corners if it meant their team would be more likely to win, even if it was to the detriment of the competition.

    With the internationalisation of the teams, the link to the region is smaller and smaller so I guess this was inevitable anyway.


    One thing I'll say about USAnian sports fans.

    The atmosphere at the games is lacking compared to footy.

    Sinking craft beer in the sun watching baseball is a nice way to pass the hours though.
    No disagreement here.
  • seanoconnseanoconn Posts: 7,620

    I'm a Northampton Town fan. We are currently dicing with relegation to League Two. It wasn't that long ago that we were playing Man City in that league. It now seems that Manchester City and others are happy to deny clubs like Northampton the opportunity to do what they did and become a giant of the Premier League or European football.

    It stinks

    Just before Northampton Town become a giant of European football! Stinks, big time.
    Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 5,744
    Jezyboy said:

    Pross said:

    I assume the FA will say any English players in breakaway teams will not be eligible for international duty as has happened previously when rugby clubs have taken a similar approach (they will then backtrack when they realise the players are more keen to earn big money that play for their country and they will lose all their top players).

    not sure why the FA will do that when they did not do so for the Premier league. Usually best to assume the FA will make the worse decision possible
    For the threat to work it also relies on international football being the pinnacle of the game. I'm not sure on that one.



    I think for players it is
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame ??
    Tall....
  • seanoconnseanoconn Posts: 7,620
    ddraver said:

    A lot of my passing interest in this is to do with how it could affect other sports. UEFA need to have a quick look at rugby to see how players value money vs country...

    (Playing for your country already being much less important in football)
    Still think a World Cup winners medal is the biggest prize in football.
    Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי
  • I'm a Northampton Town fan. We are currently dicing with relegation to League Two. It wasn't that long ago that we were playing Man City in that league. It now seems that Manchester City and others are happy to deny clubs like Northampton the opportunity to do what they did and become a giant of the Premier League or European football.

    It stinks

    Similarly, as a Coventry fan, you'll know only too well being a Northampton fan what's gone on with us but we are finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel and look like we'll stay in the Championship. Leicester plumbed the depths and look what has happened with them.
  • laurentianlaurentian Posts: 1,816

    I'm a Northampton Town fan. We are currently dicing with relegation to League Two. It wasn't that long ago that we were playing Man City in that league. It now seems that Manchester City and others are happy to deny clubs like Northampton the opportunity to do what they did and become a giant of the Premier League or European football.

    It stinks

    Similarly, as a Coventry fan, you'll know only too well being a Northampton fan what's gone on with us but we are finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel and look like we'll stay in the Championship. Leicester plumbed the depths and look what has happened with them.
    Yep! I wish we could scrape a couple of results like your last two! Good to see you back in your own ground at last.

    Leicester are the obvious example to use here - their Premier league win was the arcetypal sporting fairytale - outstanding. And yet with this proposal, they would not have the opportunity to qualify for the biggest club competition of them all if they did it again.
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,879 Lives Here

    I'm a Northampton Town fan. We are currently dicing with relegation to League Two. It wasn't that long ago that we were playing Man City in that league. It now seems that Manchester City and others are happy to deny clubs like Northampton the opportunity to do what they did and become a giant of the Premier League or European football.

    It stinks

    Similarly, as a Coventry fan, you'll know only too well being a Northampton fan what's gone on with us but we are finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel and look like we'll stay in the Championship. Leicester plumbed the depths and look what has happened with them.
    Yep! I wish we could scrape a couple of results like your last two! Good to see you back in your own ground at last.

    Leicester are the obvious example to use here - their Premier league win was the arcetypal sporting fairytale - outstanding. And yet with this proposal, they would not have the opportunity to qualify for the biggest club competition of them all if they did it again.
    Only if you think the ESL is as bigger competition?
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,811
    edited 19 April
    This new league isn't attractive to fans - if they really thought it appealed more than the Premier League they'd leave and go it alone. Nobody is paying for a subscription to this over the Premier League except fans of those clubs and they know it.

    Hopefully they'll get told to get tae f*** because the interest in them is purely down to their position in the domestic league. People weren't queuing up to offer invites to City or Chelsea to this kind of thing when they were in the second and third tier. 20-30 years back Leeds would be invited, before that Everton, Forest, Derby , Ipswich etc. Ironically the catalyst for all this is the TV money which has made it possible for new clubs (like City, Leicester and next maybe Everton and West Ham) to gatecrash the cartel of European qualification. The likes of Utd and Liverpool know they can't continue to skim a big profit and take top 4 for granted - their business model is under threat.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • shirley_bassoshirley_basso Posts: 4,434
    It's all about the global audience. The british fans have little value to the clubs - it's about monetising the top european clubs in the far east - to the type of people who drink cola mixed £1,000 bottles of red wine. I don't think they really care about heritage.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 12,610

    It's all about the global audience. The british fans have little value to the clubs - it's about monetising the top european clubs in the far east - to the type of people who drink cola mixed £1,000 bottles of red wine. I don't think they really care about heritage.

    Clubs such as Arsenal still get a significant amount of revenue from gate receipts.
  • shirley_bassoshirley_basso Posts: 4,434
    edited 19 April

    It's all about the global audience. The british fans have little value to the clubs - it's about monetising the top european clubs in the far east - to the type of people who drink cola mixed £1,000 bottles of red wine. I don't think they really care about heritage.

    Clubs such as Arsenal still get a significant amount of revenue from gate receipts.
    Define significant in this case?

    Can you put a number on it

    Vs merchandise sales
    Vs TV revenue
    Vs advertising and sponsorship

    Edit: just under 1/4 total income

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/251152/revenue-of-fc-arsenal-london-by-stream/
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 12,610

    It's all about the global audience. The british fans have little value to the clubs - it's about monetising the top european clubs in the far east - to the type of people who drink cola mixed £1,000 bottles of red wine. I don't think they really care about heritage.

    Clubs such as Arsenal still get a significant amount of revenue from gate receipts.
    Define significant in this case?

    Can you put a number on it

    Vs merchandise sales
    Vs TV revenue
    Vs advertising and sponsorship

    Edit: just under 1/4 total income

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/251152/revenue-of-fc-arsenal-london-by-stream/
    It has remained relatively constant but has shrunk as a proportion of the overall income as TV income has grown; however, being out of the champions league and not being very competitive has impacted the TV income recently. Anyway, the point is that fans attending games still has quite a lot of value.

    Also, I'd imagine that the UK fans pay the bulk of the TV income.


  • ProssPross Posts: 27,085

    I'm a Northampton Town fan. We are currently dicing with relegation to League Two. It wasn't that long ago that we were playing Man City in that league. It now seems that Manchester City and others are happy to deny clubs like Northampton the opportunity to do what they did and become a giant of the Premier League or European football.

    It stinks

    Similarly, as a Coventry fan, you'll know only too well being a Northampton fan what's gone on with us but we are finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel and look like we'll stay in the Championship. Leicester plumbed the depths and look what has happened with them.
    Yep! I wish we could scrape a couple of results like your last two! Good to see you back in your own ground at last.

    Leicester are the obvious example to use here - their Premier league win was the arcetypal sporting fairytale - outstanding. And yet with this proposal, they would not have the opportunity to qualify for the biggest club competition of them all if they did it again.
    Arguably a "bigger" club than Spurs in the past decade. I struggle to understand why Spurs are even considered one of the Big 6.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,879 Lives Here
    Pross said:

    I'm a Northampton Town fan. We are currently dicing with relegation to League Two. It wasn't that long ago that we were playing Man City in that league. It now seems that Manchester City and others are happy to deny clubs like Northampton the opportunity to do what they did and become a giant of the Premier League or European football.

    It stinks

    Similarly, as a Coventry fan, you'll know only too well being a Northampton fan what's gone on with us but we are finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel and look like we'll stay in the Championship. Leicester plumbed the depths and look what has happened with them.
    Yep! I wish we could scrape a couple of results like your last two! Good to see you back in your own ground at last.

    Leicester are the obvious example to use here - their Premier league win was the arcetypal sporting fairytale - outstanding. And yet with this proposal, they would not have the opportunity to qualify for the biggest club competition of them all if they did it again.
    Arguably a "bigger" club than Spurs in the past decade. I struggle to understand why Spurs are even considered one of the Big 6.
    Big US following, big NFL ready stadium.
  • shirley_bassoshirley_basso Posts: 4,434

    It's all about the global audience. The british fans have little value to the clubs - it's about monetising the top european clubs in the far east - to the type of people who drink cola mixed £1,000 bottles of red wine. I don't think they really care about heritage.

    Clubs such as Arsenal still get a significant amount of revenue from gate receipts.
    Define significant in this case?

    Can you put a number on it

    Vs merchandise sales
    Vs TV revenue
    Vs advertising and sponsorship

    Edit: just under 1/4 total income

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/251152/revenue-of-fc-arsenal-london-by-stream/
    It has remained relatively constant but has shrunk as a proportion of the overall income as TV income has grown; however, being out of the champions league and not being very competitive has impacted the TV income recently. Anyway, the point is that fans attending games still has quite a lot of value.

    Also, I'd imagine that the UK fans pay the bulk of the TV income.


    For now....
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 12,610
    After a quick google. TV rights for premier league football in the UK sold for £5bn and £4.2bn for the rest of the world combined.
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