Census - "Religion" question

rjsterry

lesfirth said:

singleton said:

First.Aspect said:

At best, anyone who actually believes in an after life with plentiful olives and citrus fruit, and a permanent vanilla sky, has probably not questioned things they were told as a child quite enough.

I agree that children should question what their parents tell them on topics like this.

As a child I was told there was no God. I questioned that and spent some time looking into the claims of the bible and I came to the conclusion that what my parents told me was wrong, and I am an active Christian.

You are very lucky to be able to make your own decision. The overwhelming majority of any followers of any faith were brainwashed as children into believing that they should follow their parents in the correct faith and that the billions of other religious followers had got it wrong.

It's funny that when religion is being discussed, it's always 'brainwashing' but in any other context it's 'bringing up your children well'. The differences between religions (and non-religious moral codes) are relatively small compared with the things we pretty much all agree on.

thistle_

DeVlaeminck said:

I'd rather they didn't ask the religion question - it does imply that your religion is more important than say whether you are a vegetarian or whether you have a full driving licence.

I was surprised how little information they asked for - it seemed to be name, age, house, job optional religion, sexuality and that was it.

Some more fun/interesting questions such as the bread roll one wouldn't go amiss but I guess they can only ask things they can justify as essential for running the country.

elbowloh

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

Is there an agnostic option? I'm not certain enough either way and find people who unquestioningly believe either way to be equally intriguing. Maybe I'm just not clever enough to understand the origins of life as much as others. I bet there are a lot of aethists who, on their deathbeds, have a slight niggling question of "what if I was wrong".

Firstly, not many I couldn't have thought. Secondly, would one naturally think tthis at all, in the absence of prolonged societal pressure? Thirdly, make your mind up. 🙂

Also, if you're agnostic, doesn't it mean you have to be agnostic of all of the gods? Thor, Ganesha etc.

Origins of life? Oh, I don't understand it, so it must be magic. Is that the same for particle physics?

I don't think there are many atheists who thought, "what if I was wrong", what you're describing there is a Catholic, who can get absolution on their deathbed ;-). This is the old "no atheists in foxholes" bollocks in a different guise. Atheists generally have thought a lot about why they don't believe in a god already and being on their deathbed doesn't change anything.

elbowloh

DeVlaeminck said:

I'd rather they didn't ask the religion question - it does imply that your religion is more important than say whether you are a vegetarian or whether you have a full driving licence.

Tbf, the government already knows who and how many have a full driving licence.

pblakeney

Random thoughts.
Why not an option for believing in a god, but think religions are all about power?
Who gets into heaven, the bad person who attends church or the good person who doesn't believe?

I'm not fussy about the answers one way or the other, just random...

elbowloh

rjsterry said:

lesfirth said:

singleton said:

First.Aspect said:

At best, anyone who actually believes in an after life with plentiful olives and citrus fruit, and a permanent vanilla sky, has probably not questioned things they were told as a child quite enough.

I agree that children should question what their parents tell them on topics like this.

As a child I was told there was no God. I questioned that and spent some time looking into the claims of the bible and I came to the conclusion that what my parents told me was wrong, and I am an active Christian.

You are very lucky to be able to make your own decision. The overwhelming majority of any followers of any faith were brainwashed as children into believing that they should follow their parents in the correct faith and that the billions of other religious followers had got it wrong.

It's funny that when religion is being discussed, it's always 'brainwashing' but in any other context it's 'bringing up your children well'. The differences between religions (and non-religious moral codes) are relatively small compared with the things we pretty much all agree on.

I think the differences can be quite big, particularly with regards to the carrot and stick you use to enforce the code.

The threat of going to hell for eternity, is pretty horrendous imo.

pblakeney

elbowloh said:

rjsterry said:

lesfirth said:

singleton said:

First.Aspect said:

At best, anyone who actually believes in an after life with plentiful olives and citrus fruit, and a permanent vanilla sky, has probably not questioned things they were told as a child quite enough.

I agree that children should question what their parents tell them on topics like this.

As a child I was told there was no God. I questioned that and spent some time looking into the claims of the bible and I came to the conclusion that what my parents told me was wrong, and I am an active Christian.

You are very lucky to be able to make your own decision. The overwhelming majority of any followers of any faith were brainwashed as children into believing that they should follow their parents in the correct faith and that the billions of other religious followers had got it wrong.

It's funny that when religion is being discussed, it's always 'brainwashing' but in any other context it's 'bringing up your children well'. The differences between religions (and non-religious moral codes) are relatively small compared with the things we pretty much all agree on.

I think the differences can be quite big, particularly with regards to the carrot and stick you use to enforce the code.

The threat of going to hell for eternity, is pretty horrendous imo.

Only if you believe in the existence of hell.

First.Aspect

elbowloh said:

rjsterry said:

lesfirth said:

singleton said:

First.Aspect said:

At best, anyone who actually believes in an after life with plentiful olives and citrus fruit, and a permanent vanilla sky, has probably not questioned things they were told as a child quite enough.

I agree that children should question what their parents tell them on topics like this.

As a child I was told there was no God. I questioned that and spent some time looking into the claims of the bible and I came to the conclusion that what my parents told me was wrong, and I am an active Christian.

You are very lucky to be able to make your own decision. The overwhelming majority of any followers of any faith were brainwashed as children into believing that they should follow their parents in the correct faith and that the billions of other religious followers had got it wrong.

It's funny that when religion is being discussed, it's always 'brainwashing' but in any other context it's 'bringing up your children well'. The differences between religions (and non-religious moral codes) are relatively small compared with the things we pretty much all agree on.

I think the differences can be quite big, particularly with regards to the carrot and stick you use to enforce the code.

The threat of going to hell for eternity, is pretty horrendous imo.

It doesn't seem to provide much of a deterrent to anything in practice though does it?

yorkshireraw

DeVlaeminck said:

I'd rather they didn't ask the religion question - it does imply that your religion is more important than say whether you are a vegetarian or whether you have a full driving licence.

Good point ref. Veggie. etc - this should inform public health / NHS & school meal provision etc.

I'd suggest the DVLA already know how many people hold a full (UK) driving licence. The interesting question would be 'do you drive / have access to a car' vs. licence holder numbers.

First.Aspect

It wasn't very long ago that in UK society there was a stigma to being openly atheist. It is a relief to be part of the main stream.

I'll stop taking pot shots about believing fairy tales in around, oh, 2000 years or so when we are even.

elbowloh

First.Aspect said:

elbowloh said:

rjsterry said:

lesfirth said:

singleton said:

First.Aspect said:

At best, anyone who actually believes in an after life with plentiful olives and citrus fruit, and a permanent vanilla sky, has probably not questioned things they were told as a child quite enough.

I agree that children should question what their parents tell them on topics like this.

As a child I was told there was no God. I questioned that and spent some time looking into the claims of the bible and I came to the conclusion that what my parents told me was wrong, and I am an active Christian.

You are very lucky to be able to make your own decision. The overwhelming majority of any followers of any faith were brainwashed as children into believing that they should follow their parents in the correct faith and that the billions of other religious followers had got it wrong.

It's funny that when religion is being discussed, it's always 'brainwashing' but in any other context it's 'bringing up your children well'. The differences between religions (and non-religious moral codes) are relatively small compared with the things we pretty much all agree on.

I think the differences can be quite big, particularly with regards to the carrot and stick you use to enforce the code.

The threat of going to hell for eternity, is pretty horrendous imo.

It doesn't seem to provide much of a deterrent to anything in practice though does it?

I'm not sure. A lot of religious people argue that without religion, the country would become hives of scum and villainy. So think how many murders and assaults there would be if everyone was atheist!

yorkshireraw

elbowloh said:

First.Aspect said:

elbowloh said:

rjsterry said:

lesfirth said:

singleton said:

First.Aspect said:

At best, anyone who actually believes in an after life with plentiful olives and citrus fruit, and a permanent vanilla sky, has probably not questioned things they were told as a child quite enough.

I agree that children should question what their parents tell them on topics like this.

As a child I was told there was no God. I questioned that and spent some time looking into the claims of the bible and I came to the conclusion that what my parents told me was wrong, and I am an active Christian.

You are very lucky to be able to make your own decision. The overwhelming majority of any followers of any faith were brainwashed as children into believing that they should follow their parents in the correct faith and that the billions of other religious followers had got it wrong.

It's funny that when religion is being discussed, it's always 'brainwashing' but in any other context it's 'bringing up your children well'. The differences between religions (and non-religious moral codes) are relatively small compared with the things we pretty much all agree on.

I think the differences can be quite big, particularly with regards to the carrot and stick you use to enforce the code.

The threat of going to hell for eternity, is pretty horrendous imo.

It doesn't seem to provide much of a deterrent to anything in practice though does it?

I'm not sure. A lot of religious people argue that without religion, the country would become hives of scum and villainy. So think how many murders and assaults there would be if everyone was atheist!

Dunno, might be a few less Priests abusing kids though, so could go either way.

vincesummerskRoxcBTr

It is interesting the concept that an atheist unquestionably believes in no God(s). The whole point for me, and I suspect many atheists, is not believing in anything but taking a rational of what evidence there might be for the existence of any deities and deciding there is no evidence for god(s).
This is not replacing one belief/faith for another it is a rational conclusion from the evidence.

secretsam

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

No as in, at the pearly gates.

Don't take this the wrong way, but does this sort of thing create ongoing friction in your marriage?

You strike me as a person capable, mostly, of rational analysis.

At best, anyone who actually believes in an after life with plentiful olives and citrus fruit, and a permanent vanilla sky, has probably not questioned things they were told as a child quite enough.

Why are all anti-religionists so literal?

Religion, or more properly the church, as a moral code and a form of social glue is fine.

Brief in fairy tales is more problematic.

It depends what you think the 'fairy tales' are for.

Control

secretsam

Can I just say how lovely the standard of debate is on this thread? Lots of differing opinions, treated with respect and courtesy.

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

It wasn't very long ago that in UK society there was a stigma to being openly atheist. It is a relief to be part of the main stream.

I'll stop taking pot shots about believing fairy tales in around, oh, 2000 years or so when we are even.

So, FWIW, for my wife, it's less about what's in the bible (I think I have a better grasp of it than she does), but more she feels she's bringing up our child in a "culturally Christian" way - so even if there is no prayer or belief in the Big Man upstairs and his pearly gated heaven, but more a recognition that we take time off for Easter holidays, Christmas, we make pancakes on shrove Tuesday and generally operate in a typically Western European / CofE way.

This is quite a common trope in Dutch politics; the anti-immigration far right often refer to a "Judaeo-Christian" society and one that is incompatible with Islam.

elbowloh

vincesummerskRoxcBTr said:

It is interesting the concept that an atheist unquestionably believes in no God(s). The whole point for me, and I suspect many atheists, is not believing in anything but taking a rational of what evidence there might be for the existence of any deities and deciding there is no evidence for god(s).
This is not replacing one belief/faith for another it is a rational conclusion from the evidence.

It's not a belief in no gods, but a lack of belief in any gods.

"a"theist = without belief.

there really isn't any evidence to consider.

First.Aspect

elbowloh said:

First.Aspect said:

elbowloh said:

rjsterry said:

lesfirth said:

singleton said:

First.Aspect said:

At best, anyone who actually believes in an after life with plentiful olives and citrus fruit, and a permanent vanilla sky, has probably not questioned things they were told as a child quite enough.

I agree that children should question what their parents tell them on topics like this.

As a child I was told there was no God. I questioned that and spent some time looking into the claims of the bible and I came to the conclusion that what my parents told me was wrong, and I am an active Christian.

You are very lucky to be able to make your own decision. The overwhelming majority of any followers of any faith were brainwashed as children into believing that they should follow their parents in the correct faith and that the billions of other religious followers had got it wrong.

It's funny that when religion is being discussed, it's always 'brainwashing' but in any other context it's 'bringing up your children well'. The differences between religions (and non-religious moral codes) are relatively small compared with the things we pretty much all agree on.

I think the differences can be quite big, particularly with regards to the carrot and stick you use to enforce the code.

The threat of going to hell for eternity, is pretty horrendous imo.

It doesn't seem to provide much of a deterrent to anything in practice though does it?

I'm not sure. A lot of religious people argue that without religion, the country would become hives of scum and villainy. So think how many murders and assaults there would be if everyone was atheist!

Yes but that belief isn't supported by evidence either is it.

secretsam

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

It wasn't very long ago that in UK society there was a stigma to being openly atheist. It is a relief to be part of the main stream.

I'll stop taking pot shots about believing fairy tales in around, oh, 2000 years or so when we are even.

So, FWIW, for my wife, it's less about what's in the bible (I think I have a better grasp of it than she does), but more she feels she's bringing up our child in a "culturally Christian" way - so even if there is no prayer or belief in the Big Man upstairs and his pearly gated heaven, but more a recognition that we take time off for Easter holidays, Christmas, we make pancakes on shrove Tuesday and generally operate in a typically Western European / CofE way.

This is quite a common trope in Dutch politics; the anti-immigration far right often refer to a "Judaeo-Christian" society and one that is incompatible with Islam.

As noted above, Xmas and Easter are adaptations of pagan festivals.

And if you look at the roots of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, they are really very similar, as are their belief sets.

elbowloh

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

It wasn't very long ago that in UK society there was a stigma to being openly atheist. It is a relief to be part of the main stream.

I'll stop taking pot shots about believing fairy tales in around, oh, 2000 years or so when we are even.

So, FWIW, for my wife, it's less about what's in the bible (I think I have a better grasp of it than she does), but more she feels she's bringing up our child in a "culturally Christian" way - so even if there is no prayer or belief in the Big Man upstairs and his pearly gated heaven, but more a recognition that we take time off for Easter holidays, Christmas, we make pancakes on shrove Tuesday and generally operate in a typically Western European / CofE way.

This is quite a common trope in Dutch politics; the anti-immigration far right often refer to a "Judaeo-Christian" society and one that is incompatible with Islam.

apart from sharing a common book of course.

secretsam

So, the non-believers among us, it's mostly about a lack of proof - the hypothesis of God being 'not proven'? No-one subscribes to the interpretation that religion is an emotional support mechanism, which shields the believer from accepting life's harsh realities (the Sartre perspective)?

vincesummerskRoxcBTr

It's not a believe in no gods, but a lack of believe in any gods.

"a"theist = without belief.

there really isn't any evidence to consider.


Exactly my point, although I would say that lack of any evidence is the basis of a rational decision!

elbowloh

First.Aspect said:

elbowloh said:

First.Aspect said:

elbowloh said:

rjsterry said:

lesfirth said:

singleton said:

First.Aspect said:

At best, anyone who actually believes in an after life with plentiful olives and citrus fruit, and a permanent vanilla sky, has probably not questioned things they were told as a child quite enough.

I agree that children should question what their parents tell them on topics like this.

As a child I was told there was no God. I questioned that and spent some time looking into the claims of the bible and I came to the conclusion that what my parents told me was wrong, and I am an active Christian.

You are very lucky to be able to make your own decision. The overwhelming majority of any followers of any faith were brainwashed as children into believing that they should follow their parents in the correct faith and that the billions of other religious followers had got it wrong.

It's funny that when religion is being discussed, it's always 'brainwashing' but in any other context it's 'bringing up your children well'. The differences between religions (and non-religious moral codes) are relatively small compared with the things we pretty much all agree on.

I think the differences can be quite big, particularly with regards to the carrot and stick you use to enforce the code.

The threat of going to hell for eternity, is pretty horrendous imo.

It doesn't seem to provide much of a deterrent to anything in practice though does it?

I'm not sure. A lot of religious people argue that without religion, the country would become hives of scum and villainy. So think how many murders and assaults there would be if everyone was atheist!

Yes but that belief isn't supported by evidence either is it.

Indeed.

that's the problem with faith, innit.

pblakeney

secretsam said:

So, the non-believers among us, it's mostly about a lack of proof - the hypothesis of God being 'not proven'? No-one subscribes to the interpretation that religion is an emotional support mechanism, which shields the believer from accepting life's harsh realities (the Sartre perspective)?

A non-believer does not have that support mechanism.
You'd have to ask a believer.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

It wasn't very long ago that in UK society there was a stigma to being openly atheist. It is a relief to be part of the main stream.

I'll stop taking pot shots about believing fairy tales in around, oh, 2000 years or so when we are even.

So, FWIW, for my wife, it's less about what's in the bible (I think I have a better grasp of it than she does), but more she feels she's bringing up our child in a "culturally Christian" way - so even if there is no prayer or belief in the Big Man upstairs and his pearly gated heaven, but more a recognition that we take time off for Easter holidays, Christmas, we make pancakes on shrove Tuesday and generally operate in a typically Western European / CofE way.

This is quite a common trope in Dutch politics; the anti-immigration far right often refer to a "Judaeo-Christian" society and one that is incompatible with Islam.

Don't know about the last part, but bringing up your child with a vaguely "Christian" moral code (which isn't in any way contradictory to a vaguely Islamic moral code I don't think) is perfectly fine. As is enjoying vaguely Christian traditions and explaining what they are about.

Not ticking "Christian" on a form because it is not the done thing is exactly what I used to do.

Not ticking "Christian" on the census form and fearing that you will be smite down from on high is on a par with avoiding stepping on the cracks in paving stones, though.

rick_chasey

elbowloh said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

It wasn't very long ago that in UK society there was a stigma to being openly atheist. It is a relief to be part of the main stream.

I'll stop taking pot shots about believing fairy tales in around, oh, 2000 years or so when we are even.

So, FWIW, for my wife, it's less about what's in the bible (I think I have a better grasp of it than she does), but more she feels she's bringing up our child in a "culturally Christian" way - so even if there is no prayer or belief in the Big Man upstairs and his pearly gated heaven, but more a recognition that we take time off for Easter holidays, Christmas, we make pancakes on shrove Tuesday and generally operate in a typically Western European / CofE way.

This is quite a common trope in Dutch politics; the anti-immigration far right often refer to a "Judaeo-Christian" society and one that is incompatible with Islam.

apart from sharing a common book of course.

So this is what I'm trying to explain. It's not about religious etymology or theology, it's about the cultural differences. Swap out culturally "Christian" for culturally "European" and you get the same idea.

I don't think sharing the same roots for religion is necessarily a reason people have found to focus on similarities rather than the differences. Quite the contrary.

pblakeney

Here's a question for the believers. Does your all powerful god really care if you attend meetings in a man made building assuming you are otherwise pious?

secretsam

pblakeney said:

Here's a question for the believers. Does your all powerful god really care if you attend meetings in a man made building assuming you are otherwise pious?

What I don't understand is why the faiths all need separate buildings. You get multi-faith rooms in hospitals, and given that worship often happens on different days, you could probably have a multi-faith worship facility. Think of the money you'd save.

Bit like ground sharing between football and egg-chasers.

surrey_commuter

secretsam said:

So, the non-believers among us, it's mostly about a lack of proof - the hypothesis of God being 'not proven'? No-one subscribes to the interpretation that religion is an emotional support mechanism, which shields the believer from accepting life's harsh realities (the Sartre perspective)?

I don't believe that Venus is not made of cheese becuase of a lack of proof, the whole notion is ridiculous. Yes I do believe it is an emotional crutch for some and moral guidance for others and that is fine.

surrey_commuter

I know this bloke who set up a godless church as he enjoyed the community spirit and singing part of churchgoing but not the religion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_Assembly