I thought covid would improve motorist and cyclist interaction. I was wrong.

oxoman

This is currently running in local rag about a well established TT. Guessing it was started by some numpty reporter who doesn't ride and got passed by a cyclist once. The comments a great, not. I thought with more people out on bikes that motorist perception might have changed, obviously not.
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/burton/cyclists-racing-a50-branded-selfish-4502986#comments-section

Cargobike

The Derby Telegraph seem to be going out of their way to be extremely anti-cyclist presently. Every week there seems to be a clickbait article stoking up supposed tensions between cyclists and motorists.

What the idiots don't realise is that their one sided articles are working, but most definitely not in favour of local riders. I'm having far more close/punishment passes now than I ever have had since living/working in the area over the past 10 years.

I've been verbally and physically threatened and run off the road, resulting in cracked ribs and a broken collarbone, only a couple of months ago by an impatient driver on a single track lane. While I am in no place to directly link any of this directly to the Derby Telegraph, their editorial can't be helping the situation.

DeVlaeminck

The Derby Telegraph is awful - totally irresponsible - goes out if its way to stir up controversy and division on all sorts of issues for clicks on the website.

First.Aspect

I'm going to be unpopular, but just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Some context. The route of many A roads are very old indeed. They've been used by pedestrians, horses, farm traffic and cyclists long before cars.

One such route is the A38 in Devon. It is one of the most terrifying roads I've even driven because at any moment you can come around a relativey blind bend at 70 mph and encounter a tractor doing 20. You may have an artic behind you doing the same speed.

The tractor is entitled to be there. Even though there are a myriad of small lanes parallel or nearly parallel to the A38.

The local cycling club runs TTs on this road. It is lethal. But there are fast times. There are a myriad of smaller roads they could use instead. I think it is totally insane and irresponsible to use that A road. But they are perfectly entitled to do so.

oxoman

Glad you agree. 2 lads from my old employers were assaulted very close to the A50 that the TT is run on commuting to work and the telegraph couldn't be added to report it. One of the blokes was actually jailed for assault over one of the assaults. The other thing is the rag has printed a picture of what looks like a crit rather than a TT. Never seen or taken part in a TT with riders that close as shown in there picture.

pblakeney

First.Aspect said:

I'm going to be unpopular, but just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Some context. The route of many A roads are very old indeed. They've been used by pedestrians, horses, farm traffic and cyclists long before cars.

One such route is the A38 in Devon. It is one of the most terrifying roads I've even driven because at any moment you can come around a relativey blind bend at 70 mph and encounter a tractor doing 20. You may have an artic behind you doing the same speed.

The tractor is entitled to be there. Even though there are a myriad of small lanes parallel or nearly parallel to the A38.

The local cycling club runs TTs on this road. It is lethal. But there are fast times. There are a myriad of smaller roads they could use instead. I think it is totally insane and irresponsible to use that A road. But they are perfectly entitled to do so.

Add me to the unpopular list.
Just because a route has been used for decades and is legal doesn't mean that it remains as safe as it once was.

thistle_

For some reason time trials seem to be popular on busy, dodgy A roads.
I suspect that one reason is that new courses would fail risk assessments but existing ones can keep being used.
But there does seem to be a reluctance to ditch awful, busy courses and I don't know why - is it the organisers, or do the riders like them?

We've got several nicer, and faster TT courses available around here but events are always run on the busy, narrow, potholed trunk roads.

Several things don't add up about that news story: presumably the TT was being run first thing or in the evening when the road is quieter? Rear lights are compulsory now so there shouldn't have been any riders without lights. The number of riders sounds surprisingly large too given the current covid rules, but a hater sees a couple of cyclists and tells everyone there were hundreds of them

webboo

Time trials are run on busy roads because the traffic sucks you along and you get faster times.

First.Aspect

webboo said:

Time trials are run on busy roads because the traffic sucks you along and you get faster times.

Yes, he is Catholic.

webboo

First.Aspect said:

webboo said:

Time trials are run on busy roads because the traffic sucks you along and you get faster times.

Yes, he is Catholic.

Have I done something to upset you, love.

briantrumpet

First.Aspect said:

I'm going to be unpopular, but just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Some context. The route of many A roads are very old indeed. They've been used by pedestrians, horses, farm traffic and cyclists long before cars.

One such route is the A38 in Devon. It is one of the most terrifying roads I've even driven because at any moment you can come around a relativey blind bend at 70 mph and encounter a tractor doing 20. You may have an artic behind you doing the same speed.

The tractor is entitled to be there. Even though there are a myriad of small lanes parallel or nearly parallel to the A38.

The local cycling club runs TTs on this road. It is lethal. But there are fast times. There are a myriad of smaller roads they could use instead. I think it is totally insane and irresponsible to use that A road. But they are perfectly entitled to do so.

Indeed. I have several cycle club friends who will do TTs on the A38 because of the fast times, but I think it's lunacy. Drivers on the A38 treat it like a motorway.

Anyway, it was only today when I realised that the lockdown vows of "it can't ever go back to what it was before on the roads" had been totally forgotten. It's back to what it was, with everyone in their metal boxes haring around. War on motorists, my ârse - they've taken over the planet, and don't plan on giving it back, even when they are sitting in stationary queues miles long.

pblakeney

briantrumpet said:

Anyway, it was only today when I realised that the lockdown vows of "it can't ever go back to what it was before on the roads" had been totally forgotten. It's back to what it was, with everyone in their metal boxes haring around. War on motorists, my ârse - they've taken over the planet, and don't plan on giving it back, even when they are sitting in stationary queues miles long.

It is worse than that. Much worse. Even my wife (non-cyclist) says that the standard of driving since lockdown has been sh!t. And she doesn't normally swear. People 🤬

Pross

I'm amazed that anyone would expect attitudes to change due to Covid. Motorists were whinging at the height of the restrictions that they were being inconvenienced by pop up cycle lanes. A few of them may have wobbled around near empty roads for a few weeks when they couldn't do anything more exciting like go to the pub or watch football but now they can go back to pointless journeys in their car and ranting about people getting in their way again.

john80

Alas this is the idiocy of time trialing in that they all want a flat course on the busiest fastest roads so they can post the best times. I see people on the A66 in Cumbria and just think what is the point when there is a miriad of other roads with less traffic but dont meet the above competitive requirement.

Cargobike

thistle_(mbnw) said:

Several things don't add up about that news story: presumably the TT was being run first thing or in the evening when the road is quieter? Rear lights are compulsory now so there shouldn't have been any riders without lights. The number of riders sounds surprisingly large too given the current covid rules, but a hater sees a couple of cyclists and tells everyone there were hundreds of them

I've checked the details, there were 100 riders listed to start, approx 10 did not start and their start times were from just after 12am through to 2pm on Saturday afternoon. 100 miles over 4 x 25mile laps.

https://cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/race-details/19715

pblakeney

Bad organisation.
I thought all TTs started early on a Sunday, or late evening solely to avoid traffic.

oxoman

Certainly didn't need the so called compulsory rear lights during daytime hrs then. The thing is with TT,s it isn't group riding as riders set off at 1min intervals, they may overtake but they can't draft each other.

morstar

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

I'm going to be unpopular, but just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Some context. The route of many A roads are very old indeed. They've been used by pedestrians, horses, farm traffic and cyclists long before cars.

One such route is the A38 in Devon. It is one of the most terrifying roads I've even driven because at any moment you can come around a relativey blind bend at 70 mph and encounter a tractor doing 20. You may have an artic behind you doing the same speed.

The tractor is entitled to be there. Even though there are a myriad of small lanes parallel or nearly parallel to the A38.

The local cycling club runs TTs on this road. It is lethal. But there are fast times. There are a myriad of smaller roads they could use instead. I think it is totally insane and irresponsible to use that A road. But they are perfectly entitled to do so.

Add me to the unpopular list.
Just because a route has been used for decades and is legal doesn't mean that it remains as safe as it once was.

Afraid I have to put myself in this camp too.
I have ridden many dual carriageways and city centres over the years yet will consider it a great success if I never do either again.
I drive the A50 to my parents quite regularly and see no sense in riding on it. It is a two lane motorway in every sense of the word.
I have never seen a police car on there and the average speeds reflect that fact.
The paper may well be staffed and read by a bunch a tossers but I see no sense in riding on that road any more than running along the edges of cliff tops. Both are legal.

dannbodge

They do TTs on the A3 down here. It's a dual carriageway national speed limit road.

Having seen many as I've been driving past, most people are good and move over into the second lane. The one car/van that I routinely see not is a police vehicle.

Maybe they should change that headline to "local drivers branded selfish for driving on cyclists race course".
It's exactly the same thing. The entitlement that people feel towards something nowadays is rediculous

morstar

pblakeney said:

briantrumpet said:

Anyway, it was only today when I realised that the lockdown vows of "it can't ever go back to what it was before on the roads" had been totally forgotten. It's back to what it was, with everyone in their metal boxes haring around. War on motorists, my ârse - they've taken over the planet, and don't plan on giving it back, even when they are sitting in stationary queues miles long.

It is worse than that. Much worse. Even my wife (non-cyclist) says that the standard of driving since lockdown has been sh!t. And she doesn't normally swear. People 🤬

I agree it is worse. Although commuting remains suppressed, driving to pursue leisure activities has dispersed more widely and made things busier.
Our local beauty spot is horrific at the weekend and all the frustrations and arrogance becomes very apparent.

morstar

thistle_(mbnw) said:

For some reason time trials seem to be popular on busy, dodgy A roads.
I suspect that one reason is that new courses would fail risk assessments but existing ones can keep being used.
But there does seem to be a reluctance to ditch awful, busy courses and I don't know why - is it the organisers, or do the riders like them?

We've got several nicer, and faster TT courses available around here but events are always run on the busy, narrow, potholed trunk roads.

Several things don't add up about that news story: presumably the TT was being run first thing or in the evening when the road is quieter? Rear lights are compulsory now so there shouldn't have been any riders without lights. The number of riders sounds surprisingly large too given the current covid rules, but a hater sees a couple of cyclists and tells everyone there were hundreds of them

The A50 used to be a single carriageway and a slow one at that up until about 25 years ago. It has been totally transformed by the dual carriageway. Would be interesting to know if the TT predates that.

I guess the other change is participation numbers. Cycling popularity is poles apart from what it what and vehicles are much faster and reliable.

Add all those changes together and it is a very different prospect.

cruff

A dual carriageway TT is usually much, much safer than a single carriageway one. The clue is in the name 'dual'.

Surfaces are generally better, sightlines are immaculate, there are no (or very few) dangerous junctions and the tube is usually a nice big, wide roundabout with clear markings and lines of sight the whole way round.

The ONLY reason dual carriageways are dangerous is because of drivers. I understand the argument that this doesn't necessarily mean you should ride a bike on them because being 'right' isn't protection against being killed by an inattentive driver, but it's eniteky predictable that this would start happening now, once the hand-wringers got their way over South Cave a couple of years ago.

How about fixing the actual problem (driver education, enforced speed limits, police awareness bulletins, punishing local rags for putting this bollocks out etc) instead of penalising people for doing what is, in essence, far safer than a single carriageway TT?

nickice

I have a mate in Edinburgh who is a complete d*ck to cyclists (he was actually charged with dangerous driving for 'nudging' a cyclist who he'd been arguing with. Somehow it was dropped). I said to him that next time, I'm back we're going to go cycling in the centre together so he can see what it's like. I almost think every driver should have to ride a bike in traffic as part of their training. It might give them some perspective.

capt_slog

I live a few miles away from the a50 section mentioned here. I'm with the 'just because you can...." camp.

I once rode along part of it, because I made a wrong turning earlier thinking the road i was on went the way it did when I was younger. I cycled a couple of miles and then carried the bike up the embankment and onto a bridge.

There's no way I'd want to cycle it voluntarily.

morstar

cruff said:

A dual carriageway TT is usually much, much safer than a single carriageway one. The clue is in the name 'dual'.

Surfaces are generally better, sightlines are immaculate, there are no (or very few) dangerous junctions and the tube is usually a nice big, wide roundabout with clear markings and lines of sight the whole way round.

The ONLY reason dual carriageways are dangerous is because of drivers. I understand the argument that this doesn't necessarily mean you should ride a bike on them because being 'right' isn't protection against being killed by an inattentive driver, but it's eniteky predictable that this would start happening now, once the hand-wringers got their way over South Cave a couple of years ago.

How about fixing the actual problem (driver education, enforced speed limits, police awareness bulletins, punishing local rags for putting this bollocks out etc) instead of penalising people for doing what is, in essence, far safer than a single carriageway TT?

I don’t agree the ONLY issue with safety is drivers. Don’t get me wrong, they are as flawed as any group of individuals. Unskilled, unaware, aggressive etc. etc.
However, there is an inherent risk in mixing many different vehicles of very different sizes travelling at speeds of totally different magnitudes.
A variable terrain single carriageway road with a 60mph limit is generally safer imho as drivers are continually engaged with braking, turning, junctions, passing etc. and don’t just roll unhindered at 60mph.
The A50 has a stretch of around 40 miles with only 3 roundabouts (two of which come in half a mile), it very much drives like a motorway and I have never seen a cyclist on it. If I saw one, I’d think they were nuts.
Should they be slagged off in the newspaper, no, but it is legitimate to debate the wisdom.

Think in terms of an activity you don’t have a vested interest in.
Plastic surgery is not illegal but I wish young women wouldn’t ruin their bodies with cucumber lips and watermelon sized tits. Is it fair for me to state that opinion?

oxoman

May not see many cyclists on the A50 however shed loads of slower moving tractors and trailers go along this particular section. I would sooner take my chances on the A50 than the A515 to Ashbourne on a wkday.

Dorset_Boy

Surely what makes the dual carriageway TTs so very dangerous is the speed differentials - c 50-70 mph differentials. That is just plain dangerous.
There is a TT course on the A303 and a rider was hit by a lorry on it - possibly sucked into the side to the lorry as it overtook.

I'm definitely in the camp of "if you can doesn't mean it's safe or sensible", and wouldn't sit on a committee of any club that used a dual carriageway for it's TTs.

That all said, some of the driving in the last week or so has been shocking.

oxoman

The biggest problem with some drivers is they are to focused on the road and don't see what's going on around and in front of them. The A50 has slow speed agricultural tractors and machines on it daily and they for the most are slower than the lads doing the TT,s.

pblakeney

oxoman said:

...The A50 has slow speed agricultural tractors and machines on it daily and they for the most are slower than the lads doing the TT,s.

Drivers tend to avoid them though cos it's going to hurt if they don't.

oxoman

Not to long ago a tanker driver hit a fire engine up the rear on the same section whilst dealing with an incident.

pblakeney

oxoman said:

Not to long ago a tanker driver hit a fire engine up the rear on the same section whilst dealing with an incident.

As good a reason as any for me not to cycle on a road like that.