Zone 6: the thread that got deleted

ugo.santalucia

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pblakeney

My interpretation is that Z6 is your red zone so I guess the coaches are probably about right and you are pushing too hard.
Or, your FTP is too low. You'd need to be confident that it is correct. That said, I don't get too precise about mine as it is only a spot test at a moment of time. I dare say my FTP would be different on each of 3 consecutive days if I tried it.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

What adjustment formula do you use on an 2x8min effort to give an FTP estimate?

Taking my very nothing special power stats from the last 6 weeks...
1min 474W
5min 336W
8min 320W
10min 310W
15min 295W
20min 290W
30min 281W
45min 260W
60min 248W (part of a Zwift workout with 40min workout followed by easy recovery, so useless guide to a 60min effort)

I'm currently working on an estimate of ~275W (95% of best 20mins), so my zone6 is 331-412W, but it's from 30th March and I don't think I've tried an all out 20min effort since... So I wouldn't be suprised if it's lower now.

Given I'm still picking up the pieces after mild COVID-19 in late March which left me wrecked for at least 9 weeks, which wrote off my Jan/Feb gains, I was surprised to do 333W up a climb for ~5min15secs last Monday https://www.strava.com/activities/3655622726/analysis/4493/4807

You have a turbo these days IIRC, ideal place to do longer intervals if outside isn't practical. https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/build-me-up/week-1-pre-training-plan/ ERG workout should give you an idea if youyr zones are in the right ballpark.

ugo.santalucia

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N0bodyOfTheGoat

All I was getting at in my post is that a 5min effort in my estimated zone 6 is consistent with a recent ride, even though I had already done two zone5 efforts of ~9/5mins beforehand and then followed it up with a ~20min zone4.

Unless you know all your comp hills are sub 8mins, you better get extending that interval training duration ASAP, while I need to get a lot more restrained with the carb snacks to lose ~3Kg+ I've gained since Covid to have any hope of managing a 4W/Kg 20min effort.

ugo.santalucia

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maryka

Less than 3 min for the national if they use the same course they've used in other years (when it was just an open). Was only just over a 3 min climb for me! Even though our Dovers/Saintbury times are similar, you will surely be a lot faster over the very short duration climbs than I am.

On the topic of zone 6 (which I would take to be Friel's zone 5b/c), 300-375w is a massive spread really? I never used FTP or total time in zone to determine interval power for short stuff. I usually went with 90% of my best peak power for the duration when I used to do those types of intervals, with appropriate recovery depending how long the duration was. I would need quite a bit of recovery for 3 min intervals (about 4x the interval length), not as much for 6 min intervals (about the same as the interval length). The amount of intervals I would do was based on overall fitness -- so 5-6 intervals if quite fit, 3-4 if not quite top level fit -- regardless of interval duration.

Obviously my power for 6 minutes would be quite a bit lower than for intervals of 3 minutes, where 6 min would be maybe 10% over FTP and 3 min intervals nearer to 30% over FTP. My FTP at my best was set to 250w so that would be ~275w for 6 min and ~325w for 3 min. But if you're doing them all at well over 300w then it sounds like you just have a lot of anaerobic capacity, whereas I don't. And probably also your FTP is too low. Maybe more testing of the W'/Monod variety would reveal a more accurate power curve than the 8 min FTP test for you.

ugo.santalucia

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bobmcstuff

You might just have a more steeply sloping critical power curve than some people. Mine is the opposite - my threshold and 5 min are OK but my 1 min and shorter is completely woeful, on the Coggan power chart (like Maryka says - you might have good anaerobic capacity).

Not sure about the < 3 mins thing though, that's around VO2 max (120% FTP roughly) which I had always heard was what you could sustain for the 3-5 minutes-ish (here is a link to a paper which found 4 mins plus or minus 30-40s under lab conditions https://www.researchgate.net/publication/216230264_Reproducibility_of_Cycling_Time_to_Exhaustion_at_VO2_Max_in_Competitive_Cyclists ). You don't normally see prescribed intervals longer than 3 mins though, so perhaps that's what the coaches were meaning in that context, maybe?

That and your FTP could be set a bit low.

ugo.santalucia

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ugo.santalucia

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N0bodyOfTheGoat

ugo.santalucia said:

I'm just not very good aerobically... there you go, earlier today I churned out my best 20 minutes effort on road (I don't have a turbo setup)... about 245 Watts. So I've never actually managed an FTP of 250 on a 20 minute test and I am not sure if I had 20 "better minutes" I would do a lot better. I'll have to conclude I am an anaerobic type, like a lactobacillus...

https://www.strava.com/activities/3702169115

Given you're ~67Kg going on the Strava ride info, that's still ~3.6W/kg for the 20mins including a number of junctions.

How often have you done "all out" 20min intervals since 23rd March?

How often have you done 5-8min intervals since 23rd March and have your power figures for those intervals improved?

Do you use a heart rate monitor and have any idea of your Lactate Threshold Heart Rate?

If you've not been doing any sort of structured training as regarding FTP improving, you've got heck of a better chance than I of doing 4W/Kg+ for 20mins.

ugo.santalucia

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bobmcstuff

See I am totally the opposite, it's very depressing.

My best 20 minutes is about 4.2 w/kg (@ 71kg), but over 1 minute it's only 433 (6.1 w/kg). On that Coggan power curve thing a "par" 1 minute power for my FTP should be more like 570-580 watts (8.2ish), which is completely unimaginable. Sprints are even worse! Like, off-the-bottom-of -the-chart worse...

My 5 minutes is alright cos I guess that is where the balance starts to get more aerobic.

ugo.santalucia

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maryka

Have you never done a longer climb in the Alps or whatever that you can use to come up with a better FTP estimate? I can certainly put out more power in a climb than on the flat for any duration. Even on Zwift with a smart trainer my power is better climbing than on the flat. So I wouldn't use a flat power output for my FTP as it just inflates the NP/TSS/CTL for all the hilly rides I do.

ugo.santalucia

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bobmcstuff

maryka said:

Have you never done a longer climb in the Alps or whatever that you can use to come up with a better FTP estimate? I can certainly put out more power in a climb than on the flat for any duration. Even on Zwift with a smart trainer my power is better climbing than on the flat. So I wouldn't use a flat power output for my FTP as it just inflates the NP/TSS/CTL for all the hilly rides I do.

Yep Alpe du Zwift is a good acid test for your FTP test result accuracy...

bobmcstuff

ugo.santalucia said:

No HR monitor, I think it slows down people in the high zones as they get scared of hitting big numbers...

I just switch my Garmin to a different screen when I am going for it. Although sometimes it's an encouragement to pick it up a bit.

ugo.santalucia

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bobmcstuff

Nice! That's a good effort.

Be interested to see what your FTP is because I'm surprised it's only 240-250 as you suggest.

If you were to combine your power profile and mine you would have one quite well rounded rider!

prawny

I’d be amazed if your ftp was only 250. Zwift had estimated my ftp as 270, I did a ramp test and it came out at 270, then I did a Tour de France event flat out took 1.08 at an average of 268w so I’m confident it’s correct and my absolute best 5m power is 320w.

I’m sure if I could manage 350+ for 6mins I’d be looking at an ftp nearer 300w.

ugo.santalucia

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N0bodyOfTheGoat

You should get yourself to Prestatyn for an intensive week's hill rep training to tackle this beauty...

https://www.strava.com/segments/2322472 (hits ~33%)

Wish me luck, I've got a few days up there (seeing family) coming up very soon!

ugo.santalucia

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ugo.santalucia

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zest28

It depends. In structured workouts, 3 minute blocks of zone 6 is really pushing the limit indeed. Those types of sessions are the hardest workouts I have ever done.

However if you are fresh and doing a single effort, it is possible to do a 4 minute Zone 6 as I see track cyclists do this.

ugo.santalucia

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ugo.santalucia

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DeVlaeminck

255 ave. round Mallory with the bit of descent and the hairpin round the top has to be harder than 255 on a trainer I'd have thought.

ugo.santalucia

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