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Edward Colston

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  • womackwomack Posts: 197
    morstar said:

    womack said:

    I feel sure there will be a statue of G. Floyd going up soon.

    A real role model!

    I guess if you don’t want to martyr minor criminals, you shouldn’t murder them for minor offences.
    Holding a gun to a pregnant woman is a minor criminal? I'd hate to meet someone who you regard as a major criminal!
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 15,790
    edited 25 April
    womack said:

    morstar said:

    womack said:

    I feel sure there will be a statue of G. Floyd going up soon.

    A real role model!

    I guess if you don’t want to martyr minor criminals, you shouldn’t murder them for minor offences.
    Holding a gun to a pregnant woman is a minor criminal? I'd hate to meet someone who you regard as a major criminal!
    You know that wasn't what he was being arested for. Or you should do.
  • womackwomack Posts: 197

    womack said:

    morstar said:

    womack said:

    I feel sure there will be a statue of G. Floyd going up soon.

    A real role model!

    I guess if you don’t want to martyr minor criminals, you shouldn’t murder them for minor offences.
    Holding a gun to a pregnant woman is a minor criminal? I'd hate to meet someone who you regard as a major criminal!
    You know that wasn't what he was being arested for. Or you should do.
    Regardless, it is something he had form for, so is he still a minor criminal?

    By the same token you could say Al Capone was arrested for tax evasion and let's forget his previous making him a minor criminal!
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 15,790
    womack said:

    womack said:

    morstar said:

    womack said:

    I feel sure there will be a statue of G. Floyd going up soon.

    A real role model!

    I guess if you don’t want to martyr minor criminals, you shouldn’t murder them for minor offences.
    Holding a gun to a pregnant woman is a minor criminal? I'd hate to meet someone who you regard as a major criminal!
    You know that wasn't what he was being arested for. Or you should do.
    Regardless, it is something he had form for, so is he still a minor criminal?

    By the same token you could say Al Capone was arrested for tax evasion and let's forget his previous making him a minor criminal!
    He was arrested for using a fake $20 bill to buy cigarettes. While being arrested for that, he was murdered by the police officer.
  • womackwomack Posts: 197

    womack said:

    womack said:

    morstar said:

    womack said:

    I feel sure there will be a statue of G. Floyd going up soon.

    A real role model!

    I guess if you don’t want to martyr minor criminals, you shouldn’t murder them for minor offences.
    Holding a gun to a pregnant woman is a minor criminal? I'd hate to meet someone who you regard as a major criminal!
    You know that wasn't what he was being arested for. Or you should do.
    Regardless, it is something he had form for, so is he still a minor criminal?

    By the same token you could say Al Capone was arrested for tax evasion and let's forget his previous making him a minor criminal!
    He was arrested for using a fake $20 bill to buy cigarettes. While being arrested for that, he was murdered by the police officer.
    But you are doing very well to avoid the issue, you still think that someone who threatens a pregnant woman with a gun is a minor criminal.

    I suppose it is like anything, if that pregnant woman had been a member of your family your sympathy towards Floyd may not be so great.

    But hey, it happened to someone else so let's show how liberal we are!
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 15,790
    edited 25 April
    womack said:

    womack said:

    womack said:

    morstar said:

    womack said:

    I feel sure there will be a statue of G. Floyd going up soon.

    A real role model!

    I guess if you don’t want to martyr minor criminals, you shouldn’t murder them for minor offences.
    Holding a gun to a pregnant woman is a minor criminal? I'd hate to meet someone who you regard as a major criminal!
    You know that wasn't what he was being arested for. Or you should do.
    Regardless, it is something he had form for, so is he still a minor criminal?

    By the same token you could say Al Capone was arrested for tax evasion and let's forget his previous making him a minor criminal!
    He was arrested for using a fake $20 bill to buy cigarettes. While being arrested for that, he was murdered by the police officer.
    But you are doing very well to avoid the issue, you still think that someone who threatens a pregnant woman with a gun is a minor criminal.

    I suppose it is like anything, if that pregnant woman had been a member of your family your sympathy towards Floyd may not be so great.

    But hey, it happened to someone else so let's show how liberal we are!
    I didn't say any of that, because I don't think it's relevant.

    Bloke got murdered by a policeman. Don't think the response should be "yes, but".
  • david37david37 Posts: 1,313
    edited 25 April

    womack said:

    womack said:

    morstar said:

    womack said:

    I feel sure there will be a statue of G. Floyd going up soon.

    A real role model!

    I guess if you don’t want to martyr minor criminals, you shouldn’t murder them for minor offences.
    Holding a gun to a pregnant woman is a minor criminal? I'd hate to meet someone who you regard as a major criminal!
    You know that wasn't what he was being arested for. Or you should do.
    Regardless, it is something he had form for, so is he still a minor criminal?

    By the same token you could say Al Capone was arrested for tax evasion and let's forget his previous making him a minor criminal!
    He was arrested for using a fake $20 bill to buy cigarettes. While being arrested for that, he was murdered by the police officer.
    the fact he was a violent criminal, convicted of robbery with threats to murder two people is not irrelevant.

    nor is his behaviour which led to the hard arrest. The execution of which was wrong.

    if he were white there wouldnt have been a murmur . The world is better without people like floyd.

    bad things tend to happen to bad people.
  • JezyboyJezyboy Posts: 671
    Reading his list of crimes, the term minor criminal does seem to be more appropriate than major or career criminal.

    Although it hardly seems relevant to the case to be honest.

    It's good to see that being against police murder in cases of using fake money is somehow a Liberal position though.
  • david37david37 Posts: 1,313
    Jezyboy said:

    Reading his list of crimes, the term minor criminal does seem to be more appropriate than major or career criminal.

    Although it hardly seems relevant to the case to be honest.

    It's good to see that being against police murder in cases of using fake money is somehow a Liberal position though.

    you think sticking a gun against a pregnant woman's stomach and threatening to kill her baby in order to rob her makes him just a minor criminal?

    id say you do have a liberal position yes. the fact that so many people hold the same opinion is quite frankly disappointing. Society is blighted by scum like that black or white theyre not minor or petty criminals theyre scum. Floyd was dangerously mental scum.
    Liberal magistrates courts prefer to see them as petty criminals and because they have addictions try to reintegrate . the net effect being that they carry on doing exactly what they want and cause ongoing and massive costs and trauma to society. Whilst the policeman has been found guilty of murdering him he's also done society a favour by getting rid of at least one violent scum bag.


  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 17,318
    Maybe you guys could just settle for criminal?

    Worth remembering that unless he ends up in permanent solitary confinement, the policeman in question will end up being unlawfully killed too.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 4,310
    womack said:

    womack said:

    womack said:

    morstar said:

    womack said:

    I feel sure there will be a statue of G. Floyd going up soon.

    A real role model!

    I guess if you don’t want to martyr minor criminals, you shouldn’t murder them for minor offences.
    Holding a gun to a pregnant woman is a minor criminal? I'd hate to meet someone who you regard as a major criminal!
    You know that wasn't what he was being arested for. Or you should do.
    Regardless, it is something he had form for, so is he still a minor criminal?

    By the same token you could say Al Capone was arrested for tax evasion and let's forget his previous making him a minor criminal!
    He was arrested for using a fake $20 bill to buy cigarettes. While being arrested for that, he was murdered by the police officer.
    But you are doing very well to avoid the issue, you still think that someone who threatens a pregnant woman with a gun is a minor criminal.

    I suppose it is like anything, if that pregnant woman had been a member of your family your sympathy towards Floyd may not be so great.

    But hey, it happened to someone else so let's show how liberal we are!
    You're swerving the issue that he was murdered. The exact classification of major or minor career criminal is irrelevant. He was murdered by an on duty officer having allegedly perpetrated a minor offence.

    I actually agree GF is a difficult character to celebrate. But , following his murder, his death has taken on more meaning than his less than perfect life.

    The police are not judge, jury and executioner and the officer was not keeping his knee on his neck whilst listening to reasoned arguments and criminal career history or in any way threatened once the suspect was contained. That matters.
  • pinkbikinipinkbikini Posts: 744
    I don’t think the policeman has done society a favour at all - he’s murdered a man and caused massive division. Unless you think every criminal should be murdered by the police. Maybe public hangings, like the Taliban?

    Floyd sounds like he was highly unpleasant, but the policeman chose to murder him when he should have arrested him, scumbag or not. It was just so blatant.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 19,755
    womack said:

    womack said:

    womack said:

    morstar said:

    womack said:

    I feel sure there will be a statue of G. Floyd going up soon.

    A real role model!

    I guess if you don’t want to martyr minor criminals, you shouldn’t murder them for minor offences.
    Holding a gun to a pregnant woman is a minor criminal? I'd hate to meet someone who you regard as a major criminal!
    You know that wasn't what he was being arested for. Or you should do.
    Regardless, it is something he had form for, so is he still a minor criminal?

    By the same token you could say Al Capone was arrested for tax evasion and let's forget his previous making him a minor criminal!
    He was arrested for using a fake $20 bill to buy cigarettes. While being arrested for that, he was murdered by the police officer.
    But you are doing very well to avoid the issue, you still think that someone who threatens a pregnant woman with a gun is a minor criminal.

    I suppose it is like anything, if that pregnant woman had been a member of your family your sympathy towards Floyd may not be so great.

    But hey, it happened to someone else so let's show how liberal we are!
    Perhaps you can explain what you think Floyd's character has to do with him being murdered by a policeman.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 15,790
    edited 25 April
    Again, if your response to a policeman murdering someone is "yes, but..." then I think you have a problem.
  • womackwomack Posts: 197

    Again, if your response to a policeman murdering someone is "yes, but..." then I think you have a problem.

    I have never said "yes but" so I don't know where you have got that from and know I don't have a problem.
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 4,310
    Seems Chauvin has an interesting past himself.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/taxnotes/2020/07/30/tax-crimes-may-ensure-a-conviction-for-derek-chauvin/?sh=59b9f8f03906&fbclid=IwAR1A22sO17FyjiinODfvJnDJtNco4OH9ogmTwH2kxM8SP-iR7uZR-V6EvZI



    I’ve not fact checked any of this but that hardly seems the done thing when excusing George Floyds murder.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 15,790
    womack said:

    Again, if your response to a policeman murdering someone is "yes, but..." then I think you have a problem.

    I have never said "yes but" so I don't know where you have got that from and know I don't have a problem.
    True, your responses generally miss the "yes".
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,256
    Well this could be awkward


    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,704 Lives Here
    Stevo’s been busy
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,789
    Wasn't aware of the Maya Forstater case until today. If our media are giving a fair representation of the case it's pretty shocking that she lost her original employment tribunal - basically for tweeting the opinion that biological sex was fixed. Thankfully that decision has been overturned on appeal.

    I'd like to see the original tweet that got her sacked.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,704 Lives Here
    Oh man the gender thing is a can of worms 100x worse anything else in terms of the toxicity of the debate.

  • mrb123mrb123 Posts: 3,099

    Wasn't aware of the Maya Forstater case until today. If our media are giving a fair representation of the case it's pretty shocking that she lost her original employment tribunal - basically for tweeting the opinion that biological sex was fixed. Thankfully that decision has been overturned on appeal.

    I'd like to see the original tweet that got her sacked.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-50858919.amp

    Report of the original case - there's a link to the full written judgment which has all of the facts of the case set out.
  • JezyboyJezyboy Posts: 671

    Oh man the gender thing is a can of worms 100x worse anything else in terms of the toxicity of the debate.

    I feel like it's one of the first social issues where "millenials" are likely to find themselves out of step with the younger generation.

  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,704 Lives Here
    edited 11 June
    Jezyboy said:

    Oh man the gender thing is a can of worms 100x worse anything else in terms of the toxicity of the debate.

    I feel like it's one of the first social issues where "millenials" are likely to find themselves out of step with the younger generation.

    Totally.

    Watching your wife go through birth rather puts the whole sex/gender thing into some perspective.

    I would say though it is not necessarily just a woke/not woke thing, but I think there are parts of the movement which seem hell bent on getting stuck into feminism.
  • ProssPross Posts: 26,985

    Oh man the gender thing is a can of worms 100x worse anything else in terms of the toxicity of the debate.

    Outside of the seemingly unresolvable questions such sporting performance and practicle issues such as what toilets or changing facilities should be used I really can't see why (other than possibly people with an ethical objection to people making a physical transformation). I don't understand how what gender someone wants to refer to themselves as makes the slightest bit of difference. I think a lot of people struggle with the conventions of how to refer to trans or gender fluid people which will lead to offense being taken where none is intended but other than that it will probably be the same people who hate anyone who is different to them. If there is a much more toxic debate then I suspect it is because it is the new discrimination on the block and toxicity relating the subject of race or sexuality is gradually subsiding although race in particular seems to have turned pretty toxic again in the past year or so.

    BTW you my want to rethink your use of the phrase 'oh boy' and choose something more gender neutral :wink:
  • tangled_metaltangled_metal Posts: 4,020
    I wonder if there were many gender fluid people around in Edward Colston's day and if they were accepted back then?
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,789
    It'll be interesting to see if transgender men and women do become fully accepted as men and women socially as well as in law.

    By coincidence I was in the pub the other night (the Jonty Farmer if anyone knows Derby) and one of the guys I was with said he'd matched with a transgender woman on tinder and and gone on a date with them.

    The woman was open about being transgender on her profile - I'm so out of touch with the modern world I've never actually seen tinder but I assume you have a profile - this guy knew before the date anyway thought about it and decided he was happy to date a transgender woman.

    6 pints in they went back to his and get naked and to this guy's surprise his date has a co ck and ba lls - the guy assumed transgender meant post op - I suppose that's when you really find out what your beliefs are.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 54,704 Lives Here
    edited 11 June
    I think acceptance is vital - currently I think a lot of trans people get serious abuse, being beat up etc, on a very regular basis.

    I think the challenge is what shape and size that acceptance is.

    A lot of the rub and (reasonable) resistance I see is around people who's sex is male who are entering female only spaces. That poses a challenge for women who themselves have their own discriminatory issues - from men!

    I think there also need to be a recognition that gender identity is important not just to trans people but also to people who identify with the sex they're born with, and so it is about finding a compromise.

    Some of the trans stuff can come across as a load of men wanting to intrude into the female only world, insisting tampons packaging doesn't refer to women specifically and things like that.

    At the same time, trans people are having a rough time in society, and that clearly needs to change. A lot of them are at a high risk of violence etc and often find themselves excluded from parts of society. That isn't fair nor right.

    I do honestly think that if you actually witness pregnancy and birth you will really question take the "sex is merely a construct" attitude.
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 13,572

    It'll be interesting to see if transgender men and women do become fully accepted as men and women socially as well as in law.

    By coincidence I was in the pub the other night (the Jonty Farmer if anyone knows Derby) and one of the guys I was with said he'd matched with a transgender woman on tinder and and gone on a date with them.

    The woman was open about being transgender on her profile - I'm so out of touch with the modern world I've never actually seen tinder but I assume you have a profile - this guy knew before the date anyway thought about it and decided he was happy to date a transgender woman.

    6 pints in they went back to his and get naked and to this guy's surprise his date has a co ck and ba lls - the guy assumed transgender meant post op - I suppose that's when you really find out what your beliefs are.

    Sounds like a social etiquette minefield - did you carry on regardless?
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 13,572
    Pross said:

    Oh man the gender thing is a can of worms 100x worse anything else in terms of the toxicity of the debate.

    Outside of the seemingly unresolvable questions such sporting performance and practicle issues such as what toilets or changing facilities should be used I really can't see why (other than possibly people with an ethical objection to people making a physical transformation). I don't understand how what gender someone wants to refer to themselves as makes the slightest bit of difference. I think a lot of people struggle with the conventions of how to refer to trans or gender fluid people which will lead to offense being taken where none is intended but other than that it will probably be the same people who hate anyone who is different to them. If there is a much more toxic debate then I suspect it is because it is the new discrimination on the block and toxicity relating the subject of race or sexuality is gradually subsiding although race in particular seems to have turned pretty toxic again in the past year or so.

    BTW you my want to rethink your use of the phrase 'oh boy' and choose something more gender neutral :wink:
    I agree with youentirely but my concern is that we are now the equivalent of our racist grandparents who couldn't see anything wrong with the terms they were using.
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